Be careful what you delete...

Ok, I deleted some system files left behind by programs I uninstalled and
drivers and lo and behold on reboot Vista wouldn't start with "missing
critical files". Ouch to say the least. Without my dual boot of XP I would
have been toast. I did check the files before deleting and they weren't MS
files unless the apps/drivers overwrote them so I'd say this is a nasty bug
which I'm reporting.

Hello Peter,
What files did you delete?
Can you try booting to the DVD?
On the install screen in the lower left, choose the recovery option
Try to see if one of the recovery options allows you to fix the system
Thanks,
Darrell Gorter[MSFT]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights
--------------------
<From: "Peter M" <pmcneil1@cogeco.ca>
<Subject: Be careful what you delete...
<Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 20:16:14 -0400
<Lines: 7
<MIME-Version: 1.0
<Content-Type: text/plain;
< format=flowed;
< charset="iso-8859-1";
< reply-type=original
<Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<X-Priority: 3
<X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
<X-Newsreader: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.5384.4
<X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.5384.4
<X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0625-7, 06/23/2006), Outbound message
<X-Antivirus-Status: Clean
<Message-ID: <#$KsoNylGHA.552@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl>
<Newsgroups: microsoft.public.windows.vista.general
<NNTP-Posting-Host: d141-169-9.home.cgocable.net 24.141.169.9
<Path: TK2MSFTNGXA01.phx.gbl!TK2MSFTNGP01.phx.gbl!TK2MSFT NGP04.phx.gbl
<Xref: TK2MSFTNGXA01.phx.gbl microsoft.public.windows.vista.general:18497
<X-Tomcat-NG: microsoft.public.windows.vista.general
<
<Ok, I deleted some system files left behind by programs I uninstalled and
<drivers and lo and behold on reboot Vista wouldn't start with "missing
<critical files". Ouch to say the least. Without my dual boot of XP I would
<have been toast. I did check the files before deleting and they weren't MS
<files unless the apps/drivers overwrote them so I'd say this is a nasty
bug
<which I'm reporting.
<
<

The files were snapman.sys and si3112.sys.. the first from the properties
version ifno was from acronis and the second from silicon image. Neither are
MS files from the vista dvd far as I know. I didnt try recover as i just
replaced them thru XP.

""Darrell Gorter[MSFT]"" <Darrellg@online.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:E6vwrlylGHA.5164@TK2MSFTNGXA01.phx.gbl...

> Hello Peter,
> What files did you delete?
> Can you try booting to the DVD?
> On the install screen in the lower left, choose the recovery option
> Try to see if one of the recovery options allows you to fix the system
> Thanks,
> Darrell Gorter[MSFT]
>

Peter--

I'm not speaking for Darrell. but most people reading what you posted would
pull out that you had hosed your system, by removing those two files--I know
snapman.sys is located by default in the System 32\Drivers folder and may
work with Acronis true image--the other is 3rd party whose absense I
wouldn't think would hose the system--I'm not sure what Silicon is
associated with--but loose associations conjure up Valley and chests but not
necessarily in any order--or not necessarily connected although I guess they
could be on multiple levels. I didn't see snapman.sys in the DLLCache
folder--I was looking there to see if perhaps it could be replaced by what I
call a "Quickie SFC (System File Check) where if I know what the damaged or
missing file is, I can just go to C:\Windows\System32\DLLCache and pull the
file out and in this instance a file will copy to desktop (left or right
click drag). I've fixed a few damaged files that way--CMD was one.

When we saw "Be careful what you delete"/on reboot Vista wouldn't start with
missing critical files"/Ouch to say the least"/Without my dual boot of XP I
would have been toast..."

Most of us would think--"this guy on a dual boot deleted some files--maybe
others he didn't mention" and now he's in a no boot Vista situation--the
"Ouch/be carefull/Vista wouldn't start kind of did it for me."

So Darell's mission was (and mine would have been exactly the same) to help
you fix or get back your Vista boot by using the new Win RE tool that Darell
and others have been working on by accessing it through the Vista DVD so
that you could use one of its "System Recovery" options to repair Vista and
replace your corrupt or missing system file and your corrupt driver file
including the listed options

Startup Repair
System Restore
Complete PC Restore
possibly even "Fabricant" when or if it's in 5384.4 or whatever flavor of
"RCI foreplay find us more bugs and hope we'll listen to you" build has
dropped now or will in a few days.

Had you been in Windows, ( from your OP it sounded like you were anywhere
but there on the Vista boot), normally in Win XP I would have urged you to
run System File Checker (SFC) to get back the windows files intact, but my
best information on SFC in Vista is that it does not yet work--that in a
high percentage of cases it can damage a registry and put you into a no boot
situation--it happened to several of us trying it.

The last comment I saw on it by one of Darell's collegues who is heavily
involved in Win RE as a PM on that team, recommended only using the "sfc/
verifyonly" switch which I've never even thought of using during the run of
XP because what it does is that switch ID's damaged file signatures but
doesn't repair them--like taking your broken car into be fixed and having
the guys say you need this and that but fail to fix it.

I'd really like to give you an intelligent explanation of the differences
among these options, but I don't know where that's explained anywhere in the
land of MSFT Redmond's posted info on the web. Maybe Darell can point us to
that information. If it was explained in a recent live meeting or chat,
then only a relatively few people would have had access to that information
a month and two days after Vista has been released to the public --May 22 I
beliveve.

CH









"Peter M" <pmcneil1@cogeco.ca> wrote in message
news:%23D5MdzylGHA.3720@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

> The files were snapman.sys and si3112.sys.. the first from the properties
> version ifno was from acronis and the second from silicon image. Neither
> are MS files from the vista dvd far as I know. I didnt try recover as i
> just replaced them thru XP.
>
> ""Darrell Gorter[MSFT]"" <Darrellg@online.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:E6vwrlylGHA.5164@TK2MSFTNGXA01.phx.gbl...

>

I can understand that. the si3112.sys is raid driver from a wrong driver
install for my card. snapman.sys is an acronis snapshot api I assume left
over from when I uninstalled acronis trueimage. However one would think with
the correct raid drivers installed that file shouldn't stop vista from
loading. So it seem there is also a MS snapman then if you have it in your
drivers folder. Now that would be the reason for one non-booting system.
I'll have to look thru the DVD and see if I can find the MS file to replace
the acronis one.

"Chad Harris" <chad@Congressareworthless.net> wrote in message
news:OC2QX10lGHA.4212@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

> Peter--
>
> I'm not speaking for Darrell. but most people reading what you posted
> would pull out that you had hosed your system, by removing those two
> files--I know snapman.sys is located by default in the System 32\Drivers
> folder and may work with Acronis true image--the other is 3rd party whose
> absense I wouldn't think would hose the system--I'm not sure what Silicon
> is associated with--but loose associations conjure up Valley and chests
> but not necessarily in any order--or not necessarily connected although I
> guess they could be on multiple levels. I didn't see snapman.sys in the
> DLLCache folder--I was looking there to see if perhaps it could be
> replaced by what I call a "Quickie SFC (System File Check) where if I know
> what the damaged or missing file is, I can just go to
> C:\Windows\System32\DLLCache and pull the file out and in this instance a
> file will copy to desktop (left or right click drag). I've fixed a few
> damaged files that way--CMD was one.
>
> When we saw "Be careful what you delete"/on reboot Vista wouldn't start
> with missing critical files"/Ouch to say the least"/Without my dual boot
> of XP I would have been toast..."
>
> Most of us would think--"this guy on a dual boot deleted some files--maybe
> others he didn't mention" and now he's in a no boot Vista situation--the
> "Ouch/be carefull/Vista wouldn't start kind of did it for me."
>
> So Darell's mission was (and mine would have been exactly the same) to
> help you fix or get back your Vista boot by using the new Win RE tool that
> Darell and others have been working on by accessing it through the Vista
> DVD so that you could use one of its "System Recovery" options to repair
> Vista and replace your corrupt or missing system file and your corrupt
> driver file including the listed options
>
> Startup Repair
> System Restore
> Complete PC Restore
> possibly even "Fabricant" when or if it's in 5384.4 or whatever flavor of
> "RCI foreplay find us more bugs and hope we'll listen to you" build has
> dropped now or will in a few days.
>
> Had you been in Windows, ( from your OP it sounded like you were anywhere
> but there on the Vista boot), normally in Win XP I would have urged you
> to run System File Checker (SFC) to get back the windows files intact,
> but my best information on SFC in Vista is that it does not yet work--that
> in a high percentage of cases it can damage a registry and put you into a
> no boot situation--it happened to several of us trying it.
>
> The last comment I saw on it by one of Darell's collegues who is heavily
> involved in Win RE as a PM on that team, recommended only using the "sfc/
> verifyonly" switch which I've never even thought of using during the run
> of XP because what it does is that switch ID's damaged file signatures but
> doesn't repair them--like taking your broken car into be fixed and having
> the guys say you need this and that but fail to fix it.
>
> I'd really like to give you an intelligent explanation of the differences
> among these options, but I don't know where that's explained anywhere in
> the land of MSFT Redmond's posted info on the web. Maybe Darell can point
> us to that information. If it was explained in a recent live meeting or
> chat, then only a relatively few people would have had access to that
> information a month and two days after Vista has been released to the
> public --May 22 I beliveve.
>
> CH
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Peter M" <pmcneil1@cogeco.ca> wrote in message
> news:%23D5MdzylGHA.3720@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

>

Peter I don't want to confuse you. And definitely if Vista is not booting
we want you to try the Win RE recovery tools which have an excellent chance
of fixing it. I don't think you're going to find anything on the Vista DVD
and I'll explain why as far as those files but just as surely, I don't think
they are the cause of Vista's demise and you can fix it.

I had Acronis on my XP but uninstalled it so that may be the reason I found
the driver file left over. I'm on a dual boot with Vista and since I don't
believe but am not sure that Mr. Lauriano and his SR team are going to be
able to fix SR's VSS problem when you go to a boot other than Vista (it
looses Vista restore points because of its VSS infrastructure I often just
type the file path or use a shortcut to get to XP. I also looked in all
possible Vista folders and no snapman.sys is around so it's probably an
Acronis rather than Windows system file. My foray to google left me with
that impression.

So if you do have a screwed up "I ain't bootin' for Peter nowVista" to put
it elegantly and articulately, I would be willing to bet that ole snapman's
and silicon's deletion as you said is hardly the cause--not in a million
years. So definitely try Win RE and here are some directions. It's a great
advantage to have Darell help on this group becaue he's got a lot deeper
knowledge of some of these Vista features than many of us could have. As
Darrell said:

***To fix your Vista Boot use your Vista DVD and use the Win RE options this
way:***

There is a promising "feature" or utility in Vista called Win RE or Windows
Recovery Environment.

How to Use Win RE to fix your Vista Boot:

***Accessing Windows RE (Repair Environment):***

1) Insert Media into PC

2) ***You will see on the Vista logo setup screen after lang. options in the
lower left corner, a link called "System Recovery Options."***

3) Select your OS for repair.

4) Its been my experience that you can see some causes of the crash from the
Win RE feature,

You'll have a choice there of using:

1) Startup Repair
2)System Restore
3) Complete PC Restore

Fabricant is also a feature but I'm not sure what its status is in Beta 2
now.

Good luck,

CH




"Peter M" <pmcneil1@cogeco.ca> wrote in message
news:Ouwy9I1lGHA.4100@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

>I can understand that. the si3112.sys is raid driver from a wrong driver
>install for my card. snapman.sys is an acronis snapshot api I assume left
>over from when I uninstalled acronis trueimage. However one would think
>with the correct raid drivers installed that file shouldn't stop vista from
>loading. So it seem there is also a MS snapman then if you have it in your
>drivers folder. Now that would be the reason for one non-booting system.
>I'll have to look thru the DVD and see if I can find the MS file to replace
>the acronis one.
>
> "Chad Harris" <chad@Congressareworthless.net> wrote in message
> news:OC2QX10lGHA.4212@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

>

According to a CompletePC Backup chat today, the incompatibility between the
VSS driver in XP and Vista will not change. XP is always going to delete
the Vista restore points as invalid on boot into XP. A note to remember,
VSS is not active when XP is in Safe Mode, so my thought is that booting
into Safe Mode in XP probably would not affect Vista restore points. A good
trivia question, eh Chad?

"Chad Harris" <chad@Congressareworthless.net> wrote in message
news:uk2Bex1lGHA.4212@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

> Peter I don't want to confuse you. And definitely if Vista is not booting
> we want you to try the Win RE recovery tools which have an excellent
> chance of fixing it. I don't think you're going to find anything on the
> Vista DVD and I'll explain why as far as those files but just as surely, I
> don't think they are the cause of Vista's demise and you can fix it.
>
> I had Acronis on my XP but uninstalled it so that may be the reason I
> found the driver file left over. I'm on a dual boot with Vista and since
> I don't believe but am not sure that Mr. Lauriano and his SR team are
> going to be able to fix SR's VSS problem when you go to a boot other than
> Vista (it looses Vista restore points because of its VSS infrastructure I
> often just type the file path or use a shortcut to get to XP. I also
> looked in all possible Vista folders and no snapman.sys is around so it's
> probably an Acronis rather than Windows system file. My foray to google
> left me with that impression.
>
> So if you do have a screwed up "I ain't bootin' for Peter nowVista" to
> put it elegantly and articulately, I would be willing to bet that ole
> snapman's and silicon's deletion as you said is hardly the cause--not in a
> million years. So definitely try Win RE and here are some directions.
> It's a great advantage to have Darell help on this group becaue he's got a
> lot deeper knowledge of some of these Vista features than many of us could
> have. As Darrell said:
>
> ***To fix your Vista Boot use your Vista DVD and use the Win RE options
> this
> way:***
>
> There is a promising "feature" or utility in Vista called Win RE or
> Windows
> Recovery Environment.
>
> How to Use Win RE to fix your Vista Boot:
>
> ***Accessing Windows RE (Repair Environment):***
>
> 1) Insert Media into PC
>
> 2) ***You will see on the Vista logo setup screen after lang. options in
> the
> lower left corner, a link called "System Recovery Options."***
>
> 3) Select your OS for repair.
>
> 4) Its been my experience that you can see some causes of the crash from
> the
> Win RE feature,
>
> You'll have a choice there of using:
>
> 1) Startup Repair
> 2)System Restore
> 3) Complete PC Restore
>
> Fabricant is also a feature but I'm not sure what its status is in Beta 2
> now.
>
> Good luck,
>
> CH
>
>
>
>
> "Peter M" <pmcneil1@cogeco.ca> wrote in message
> news:Ouwy9I1lGHA.4100@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

>

Colin--

One of the things I would have liked to clarify was that if you are on a
dual boot if simply shortcutting to the XP drive would cause the same
phenomenon with the restore points disappearing. I suppose I could test
that easily.but I have never seen system restore make points--this could be
entirely because I frequently go to my xp boot to use files through a
shortcut or just quickly typing C:\Documents and Settings\ChadHarris\Desktop
or the name of whatever folder added on to that path that I want to access/
I have a hunch that wipes out Vista restore points. After all I think if I
understand this correctly it's a problem of writing to XP for VSS --it's not
how you get there. I have also heard the explanation the XP driver wipes out
restore points whatever that means. Also I know that Vista detects
something has been written to the disc without tracking changes in the
shadow copy, which invalidates the existing shadwo copy when you go back to
Vista. I know I have more than the minimum of 300 MB of disk space that
Vista requires to keep SR on. It was 200 MB with XP.

CH

"Colin Barnhorst" <colinbarharst(remove)@msn.com> wrote in message
news:%239NxD71lGHA.4808@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

> According to a CompletePC Backup chat today, the incompatibility between
> the VSS driver in XP and Vista will not change. XP is always going to
> delete the Vista restore points as invalid on boot into XP. A note to
> remember, VSS is not active when XP is in Safe Mode, so my thought is that
> booting into Safe Mode in XP probably would not affect Vista restore
> points. A good trivia question, eh Chad?
>
> "Chad Harris" <chad@Congressareworthless.net> wrote in message
> news:uk2Bex1lGHA.4212@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

>
>

I assume that when XP is starting up it starts VSS and the driver polls the
system for restore points. It would validate them at that time and protect
the user from restoring corrupt files by ensuring that no invalid restore
point is available. Vista restore points would not be valid and so would be
deleted.

As far as I know a volume cannot be excluded. Since this happens when XP is
running, it makes no difference that SR in XP has not been monitoring the
Vista volume because it was Vista that set the restore points on that
volume, not XP.

As to your accessing the XP volume while running Vista, the XP VSS driver
has to be running in order for anything destructive to happen to the restore
points on the Vista volume. In other words, XP has to be running. What you
are doing is accessing the XP volume as a data disk while Vista is running.
I don't see how that would cause any problem.

The larger issue bothers me. I think what is coming down the pike is the
conclusion that advising folks to multiboot XP and Vista is not a great
idea. It wouldn't even help to turn off System Restore in XP because that
really has nothing to do with it. And I know I don't have any business
telling users not to use SR.

The only way to multi-boot XP and Vista considering these things would be if
the Vista volume is hidden from XP.

I hope somebody figures out how to tell XP to stay the h*ll out of Area 51.


"Chad Harris" <chad@Congressareworthless.net> wrote in message
news:%23G0QlL2lGHA.1740@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

> Colin--
>
> One of the things I would have liked to clarify was that if you are on a
> dual boot if simply shortcutting to the XP drive would cause the same
> phenomenon with the restore points disappearing. I suppose I could test
> that easily.but I have never seen system restore make points--this could
> be entirely because I frequently go to my xp boot to use files through a
> shortcut or just quickly typing C:\Documents and
> Settings\ChadHarris\Desktop or the name of whatever folder added on to
> that path that I want to access/ I have a hunch that wipes out Vista
> restore points. After all I think if I understand this correctly it's a
> problem of writing to XP for VSS --it's not how you get there. I have also
> heard the explanation the XP driver wipes out restore points whatever that
> means. Also I know that Vista detects something has been written to the
> disc without tracking changes in the shadow copy, which invalidates the
> existing shadwo copy when you go back to Vista. I know I have more than
> the minimum of 300 MB of disk space that Vista requires to keep SR on. It
> was 200 MB with XP.
>
> CH
>
> "Colin Barnhorst" <colinbarharst(remove)@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:%239NxD71lGHA.4808@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

>

"Colin Barnhorst" <colinbarharst(remove)@msn.com> wrote in message
news:eMPOou2lGHA.3732@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

>I assume that when XP is starting up it starts VSS and the driver polls the system for restore
>points. It would validate them at that time and protect the user from restoring corrupt files
>by ensuring that no invalid restore point is available. Vista restore points would not be
>valid and so would be deleted.
>
> As far as I know a volume cannot be excluded. Since this happens when XP is running, it
> makes no difference that SR in XP has not been monitoring the Vista volume because it was
> Vista that set the restore points on that volume, not XP.
>
> As to your accessing the XP volume while running Vista, the XP VSS driver has to be running
> in order for anything destructive to happen to the restore points on the Vista volume. In
> other words, XP has to be running. What you are doing is accessing the XP volume as a data
> disk while Vista is running. I don't see how that would cause any problem.
>
> The larger issue bothers me. I think what is coming down the pike is the conclusion that
> advising folks to multiboot XP and Vista is not a great idea. It wouldn't even help to turn
> off System Restore in XP because that really has nothing to do with it. And I know I don't
> have any business telling users not to use SR.
>
> The only way to multi-boot XP and Vista considering these things would be if the Vista volume
> is hidden from XP.
>
> I hope somebody figures out how to tell XP to stay the h*ll out of Area 51.

Would XP delete the SR point if Bitlocker was used and the drive encrypted?

-Michael