I can't see other computers on the network, but they can see me...

Koze, (or anyone else who knows this answer...) I am having the same troubles
and symptoms as "desperate" with Vista Home Premium when I use my laptop at
home... But the difference for me is that at home my network is not
controlled by a domain controller, instead it is a simple WORKGROUP... As
"desperate" said, from my laptop I cannot automatically discover other
computers on my network at home, instead I have to explicitly refer to them
using the \\ network protocol. Are you saying that Vista Home Premium cannot
discover other computers in the same WORKGROUP to which it belongs?

And here is another puzzler for me... when I take my laptop in to two
different work sites, one which IS controlled by a domain and the other a
workgroup, in both places, my laptop can automatically discover other
computers on those networks as I was expecting... So your answer does not
make complete sense to me... Can you provide me with further information as
to possible reasons why my laptop does work on some networks but not on my
home network? From what I can observe, it appears as if the laptop is using
NETBIOS protocols to discover other computers at the two different worksite
networks, but it is refusing to use the NETBIOS protocols to discover other
computers on my home network... What would cause this inconsistency in
behavior?

Finally, and I wish I could get an answer from the gurus at Microsoft who
designed Vista, if the Home versions of Vista cannot discover or work within
networks, why in the world did they include the network GUI interfaces? That
seems to imply, to any normal user, that one can use, join, and discover
other computers on a network in which they have joined... I am finding Vista
to be incredibly confusing and wish someone could point me to a easy to
understand explanation of Vista's networking models and how the various GUIs
and versions of Vista are suppose to guide the user to using and
understanding the network capabilities that they each support....

Marc...


"koze" wrote:

> The home versions cannot join a domain, for domain use you have to use
> Business or Ultimate.
> Ko.
>
> "desperate" <desperate@discussions.microsoft.com> schreef in bericht
> news:7629570E-D4CB-4CB7-AFF6-92D605E1BDD7@microsoft.com...

> >I am using Vista home premium and I am regularly joining a domain, but I
> > cannot see any other computer on the network (comprises of XP-running and
> > MAC-running users), except myself. On the other hand, everyone can see me
> > and
> > I appear well connected. They can also open my public folders. I have set
> > the
> > network to private and firewall seems to be OK. Also, when I try to connet
> > to
> > a computer individually (like \\computer) I can connet. The only thing is
> > that the computers of the network are not displayed to me. Isn't this a
> > little bit strange?
> >
> > Any ideas would be extremely helpful...

>
>
>

On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 13:20:01 -0700, Marcc <Marcc@discussions.microsoft.com>
wrote:

>"koze" wrote:

>> "desperate" <desperate@discussions.microsoft.com> schreef in bericht
>> news:7629570E-D4CB-4CB7-AFF6-92D605E1BDD7@microsoft.com...

>> >I am using Vista home premium and I am regularly joining a domain, but I
>> > cannot see any other computer on the network (comprises of XP-running and
>> > MAC-running users), except myself. On the other hand, everyone can see me
>> > and
>> > I appear well connected. They can also open my public folders. I have set
>> > the
>> > network to private and firewall seems to be OK. Also, when I try to connet
>> > to
>> > a computer individually (like \\computer) I can connet. The only thing is
>> > that the computers of the network are not displayed to me. Isn't this a
>> > little bit strange?
>> >
>> > Any ideas would be extremely helpful...

>

>> The home versions cannot join a domain, for domain use you have to use
>> Business or Ultimate.
>> Ko.
>>

>Koze, (or anyone else who knows this answer...) I am having the same troubles
>and symptoms as "desperate" with Vista Home Premium when I use my laptop at
>home... But the difference for me is that at home my network is not
>controlled by a domain controller, instead it is a simple WORKGROUP... As
>"desperate" said, from my laptop I cannot automatically discover other
>computers on my network at home, instead I have to explicitly refer to them
>using the \\ network protocol. Are you saying that Vista Home Premium cannot
>discover other computers in the same WORKGROUP to which it belongs?
>
>And here is another puzzler for me... when I take my laptop in to two
>different work sites, one which IS controlled by a domain and the other a
>workgroup, in both places, my laptop can automatically discover other
>computers on those networks as I was expecting... So your answer does not
>make complete sense to me... Can you provide me with further information as
>to possible reasons why my laptop does work on some networks but not on my
>home network? From what I can observe, it appears as if the laptop is using
>NETBIOS protocols to discover other computers at the two different worksite
>networks, but it is refusing to use the NETBIOS protocols to discover other
>computers on my home network... What would cause this inconsistency in
>behavior?
>
>Finally, and I wish I could get an answer from the gurus at Microsoft who
>designed Vista, if the Home versions of Vista cannot discover or work within
>networks, why in the world did they include the network GUI interfaces? That
>seems to imply, to any normal user, that one can use, join, and discover
>other computers on a network in which they have joined... I am finding Vista
>to be incredibly confusing and wish someone could point me to a easy to
>understand explanation of Vista's networking models and how the various GUIs
>and versions of Vista are suppose to guide the user to using and
>understanding the network capabilities that they each support....
>
> Marc...

Marc,

Any Windows computer is capable of automatically discovering other computers.
You do have to setup the browser infrastructure properly, and this is a problem
to many folks.
<http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/07/windows-networking.html>
http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/0...etworking.html

Now the "NetBIOS protocol" (and there is not a NetBIOS protocol, though there is
a "NetBIOS Over TCP" transport) can be used, or it can be omitted. You have to
be consistent though. You have to consider a lot of factors in deciding whether
to use NetBT on your LAN.
# How is name resolution setup?
# Do you have any computers running anything other than Windows 2000, XP , and
Vista?
# How are your firewalls setup?
<http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2006/07/advanced-windows-networking-using.html>
http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2006/0...ing-using.html

As far as the various GUIs and versions of Vista go, there are no glaring
differences like Windows XP Home vs Pro. All versions of Vista are capable of
operating in a workgroup, to the same effectiveness. You do have to setup each
computer properly though.
<http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2006/12/windows-xp-and-vista-on-lan-together.html>
http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2006/1...-together.html

--
Cheers,
Chuck, MS-MVP [Windows - Networking]
http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/
Paranoia is not a problem, when it's a normal response from experience.
My email is AT DOT
actual address pchuck mvps org.

Thanks Chuck for your reply. Actually I have visited PChuck's network blog
(yours??) many times in trying to set up my Vista laptop to work on my home
network. It wasn't helping me much other that to let me review networking
principals.... (IMHO this website is way to complicated/complex for the
average user to understand, which is sad because having home/small business
networks is such a desirable and useful feature and many non computer savoy
folks are gonna want em...) I write software professionally, am a degreed
computer geek so was able to understand much of it, though my expertise does
not lie with networks. But wowza! most users trying to set up a network are
gonna be completely snowed trying to read those blogs!

I will say, as one who has designed a lot of software with GUIs, I
completely despise the GUI's that Microsoft presents their users on
networking... They DO NOT lead the users to the solutions that they desire,
very well, and that is an utter failure on the part of Microsoft's design
team and management.

That said, I decided to start from scratch and rebuild my network from the
ground up, at home. In the process I discovered what I think are possibly
three serious errors on Microsoft's part. I think that one of the XP Pro
computers on my LAN had somehow gotten the notion that it was part of a
domain and not in a simple WORKGROUP. EVEN THOUGH it was reporting (in My
Computer's properties) that it was a member of my workgroup. When I used the
wizard, instead of the manual approach, to reconfigure this XP computer as
part of a Workgroup, the Vista laptop's ability to discover other computers
on my home network suddenly started working! So somehow, the XP Pro computer
was preventing the Vista laptop's ability to discover other computers, by
using NETBIOS, was failing.

Up till now, I have been trying to establish each computer as a member of
the same workgroup via the manual interface, not via the wizard. This leads
me to believe that there is a serious discrepancy between what is set via the
wizard, and what is set via the manual interfaces. If so, I am disgusted that
Microsoft has never bothered to test or fix this problem as it will cause a
LOT of users difficulties and frustration.

The second error, if what I now suspect is true, is that if just one
computer on a network is mis-configured, that apparently will prevent a
computer running Vista from discovering any other computers on the network.
If so, then the design of Vista's network discovery process is NOT very
robust. It (my laptop with Vista) should have been able to discover most of
the other computers on my network which were properly configured as members
of the same workgroup to which I had configured my laptop for, IMHO.

The third serious error is the fact that Vista simply fails, without any
kind of explanation or guidance, is another serious flaw in Microsofts GUI. I
do NOT understand why Microsoft's GUI's does now allow the user to give
feedback and report to the OS, after opening up a window onto the network,
whether or not the user is seeing other computers on the network as expected.
And if NOT, it is then the responsibility of the GUI and underlying OS to
figure out why, such a failure is occurring, and what must be done to fix it.
IT IS NOT THE USERS RESPONSIBILITY to have to become and expert in networking
and figure out how to fix it!!!

The poor user CANNOT be expected to have to read all that documentation on
PChucks website and have to earn a degree in networking in order to get a
computer to work in a simple network environment. MOST USERS ARE NOT COMPUTER
GEEKS, and that website is WAY BEYOND their capabilities to understand. The
inability of Microsofts UI to help users set up a network, in a simple
intuitive way, is a GROSS failure on the part of Microsoft and hence the
reason why so many users are becoming frustrated with using computers. Vista
apparently is just another turn out of flashy bells and whistles, but remains
a disappointing OS without much thought having been given to making it a
robust easy to use tool. Setting up a network, under Windows OSs remains a
nightmare as it has always been... Even PChuck recognizes this fact because
he has gone to so much trouble to generate all that documentation, but that
is an extremely poor solution for the average user.

Anywise, bottom line is I got it to work, the fix was a surprise, and I hope
Microsoft's engineers and management are reading posts such as mine. My
biggest peeve with that company is that they don't make it easy for users to
give them feedback or seem to be paying much attention to their users
experiences. Otherwise problems such as this would have gotten fixed long ago
and PChuck wouldn't have to write such a humongous blog on networking!

Marc...


"Chuck" wrote:

> On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 13:20:01 -0700, Marcc <Marcc@discussions.microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>

> >"koze" wrote:

>

> >> "desperate" <desperate@discussions.microsoft.com> schreef in bericht
> >> news:7629570E-D4CB-4CB7-AFF6-92D605E1BDD7@microsoft.com...
> >> >I am using Vista home premium and I am regularly joining a domain, but I
> >> > cannot see any other computer on the network (comprises of XP-running and
> >> > MAC-running users), except myself. On the other hand, everyone can see me
> >> > and
> >> > I appear well connected. They can also open my public folders. I have set
> >> > the
> >> > network to private and firewall seems to be OK. Also, when I try to connet
> >> > to
> >> > a computer individually (like \\computer) I can connet. The only thing is
> >> > that the computers of the network are not displayed to me. Isn't this a
> >> > little bit strange?
> >> >
> >> > Any ideas would be extremely helpful...

>

> >

> >> The home versions cannot join a domain, for domain use you have to use
> >> Business or Ultimate.
> >> Ko.
> >>

>

> >Koze, (or anyone else who knows this answer...) I am having the same troubles
> >and symptoms as "desperate" with Vista Home Premium when I use my laptop at
> >home... But the difference for me is that at home my network is not
> >controlled by a domain controller, instead it is a simple WORKGROUP... As
> >"desperate" said, from my laptop I cannot automatically discover other
> >computers on my network at home, instead I have to explicitly refer to them
> >using the \\ network protocol. Are you saying that Vista Home Premium cannot
> >discover other computers in the same WORKGROUP to which it belongs?
> >
> >And here is another puzzler for me... when I take my laptop in to two
> >different work sites, one which IS controlled by a domain and the other a
> >workgroup, in both places, my laptop can automatically discover other
> >computers on those networks as I was expecting... So your answer does not
> >make complete sense to me... Can you provide me with further information as
> >to possible reasons why my laptop does work on some networks but not on my
> >home network? From what I can observe, it appears as if the laptop is using
> >NETBIOS protocols to discover other computers at the two different worksite
> >networks, but it is refusing to use the NETBIOS protocols to discover other
> >computers on my home network... What would cause this inconsistency in
> >behavior?
> >
> >Finally, and I wish I could get an answer from the gurus at Microsoft who
> >designed Vista, if the Home versions of Vista cannot discover or work within
> >networks, why in the world did they include the network GUI interfaces? That
> >seems to imply, to any normal user, that one can use, join, and discover
> >other computers on a network in which they have joined... I am finding Vista
> >to be incredibly confusing and wish someone could point me to a easy to
> >understand explanation of Vista's networking models and how the various GUIs
> >and versions of Vista are suppose to guide the user to using and
> >understanding the network capabilities that they each support....
> >
> > Marc...

>
> Marc,
>
> Any Windows computer is capable of automatically discovering other computers.
> You do have to setup the browser infrastructure properly, and this is a problem
> to many folks.
> <http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/07/windows-networking.html>
> http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/0...etworking.html
>
> Now the "NetBIOS protocol" (and there is not a NetBIOS protocol, though there is
> a "NetBIOS Over TCP" transport) can be used, or it can be omitted. You have to
> be consistent though. You have to consider a lot of factors in deciding whether
> to use NetBT on your LAN.
> # How is name resolution setup?
> # Do you have any computers running anything other than Windows 2000, XP , and
> Vista?
> # How are your firewalls setup?
> <http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2006/07/advanced-windows-networking-using.html>
> http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2006/0...ing-using.html
>
> As far as the various GUIs and versions of Vista go, there are no glaring
> differences like Windows XP Home vs Pro. All versions of Vista are capable of
> operating in a workgroup, to the same effectiveness. You do have to setup each
> computer properly though.
> <http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2006/12/windows-xp-and-vista-on-lan-together.html>
> http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2006/1...-together.html
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Chuck, MS-MVP [Windows - Networking]
> http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/
> Paranoia is not a problem, when it's a normal response from experience.
> My email is AT DOT
> actual address pchuck mvps org.
>

On Sun, 1 Jul 2007 14:24:00 -0700, Marcc <Marcc@discussions.microsoft.com>
wrote:

>Thanks Chuck for your reply. Actually I have visited PChuck's network blog
>(yours??) many times in trying to set up my Vista laptop to work on my home
>network. It wasn't helping me much other that to let me review networking
>principals.... (IMHO this website is way to complicated/complex for the
>average user to understand, which is sad because having home/small business
>networks is such a desirable and useful feature and many non computer savoy
>folks are gonna want em...) I write software professionally, am a degreed
>computer geek so was able to understand much of it, though my expertise does
>not lie with networks. But wowza! most users trying to set up a network are
>gonna be completely snowed trying to read those blogs!
>
>I will say, as one who has designed a lot of software with GUIs, I
>completely despise the GUI's that Microsoft presents their users on
>networking... They DO NOT lead the users to the solutions that they desire,
>very well, and that is an utter failure on the part of Microsoft's design
>team and management.
>
>That said, I decided to start from scratch and rebuild my network from the
>ground up, at home. In the process I discovered what I think are possibly
>three serious errors on Microsoft's part. I think that one of the XP Pro
>computers on my LAN had somehow gotten the notion that it was part of a
>domain and not in a simple WORKGROUP. EVEN THOUGH it was reporting (in My
>Computer's properties) that it was a member of my workgroup. When I used the
>wizard, instead of the manual approach, to reconfigure this XP computer as
>part of a Workgroup, the Vista laptop's ability to discover other computers
>on my home network suddenly started working! So somehow, the XP Pro computer
>was preventing the Vista laptop's ability to discover other computers, by
>using NETBIOS, was failing.
>
>Up till now, I have been trying to establish each computer as a member of
>the same workgroup via the manual interface, not via the wizard. This leads
>me to believe that there is a serious discrepancy between what is set via the
>wizard, and what is set via the manual interfaces. If so, I am disgusted that
>Microsoft has never bothered to test or fix this problem as it will cause a
>LOT of users difficulties and frustration.
>
>The second error, if what I now suspect is true, is that if just one
>computer on a network is mis-configured, that apparently will prevent a
>computer running Vista from discovering any other computers on the network.
>If so, then the design of Vista's network discovery process is NOT very
>robust. It (my laptop with Vista) should have been able to discover most of
>the other computers on my network which were properly configured as members
>of the same workgroup to which I had configured my laptop for, IMHO.
>
>The third serious error is the fact that Vista simply fails, without any
>kind of explanation or guidance, is another serious flaw in Microsofts GUI. I
>do NOT understand why Microsoft's GUI's does now allow the user to give
>feedback and report to the OS, after opening up a window onto the network,
>whether or not the user is seeing other computers on the network as expected.
>And if NOT, it is then the responsibility of the GUI and underlying OS to
>figure out why, such a failure is occurring, and what must be done to fix it.
>IT IS NOT THE USERS RESPONSIBILITY to have to become and expert in networking
>and figure out how to fix it!!!
>
>The poor user CANNOT be expected to have to read all that documentation on
>PChucks website and have to earn a degree in networking in order to get a
>computer to work in a simple network environment. MOST USERS ARE NOT COMPUTER
>GEEKS, and that website is WAY BEYOND their capabilities to understand. The
>inability of Microsofts UI to help users set up a network, in a simple
>intuitive way, is a GROSS failure on the part of Microsoft and hence the
>reason why so many users are becoming frustrated with using computers. Vista
>apparently is just another turn out of flashy bells and whistles, but remains
>a disappointing OS without much thought having been given to making it a
>robust easy to use tool. Setting up a network, under Windows OSs remains a
>nightmare as it has always been... Even PChuck recognizes this fact because
>he has gone to so much trouble to generate all that documentation, but that
>is an extremely poor solution for the average user.
>
>Anywise, bottom line is I got it to work, the fix was a surprise, and I hope
>Microsoft's engineers and management are reading posts such as mine. My
>biggest peeve with that company is that they don't make it easy for users to
>give them feedback or seem to be paying much attention to their users
>experiences. Otherwise problems such as this would have gotten fixed long ago
>and PChuck wouldn't have to write such a humongous blog on networking!
>
> Marc...

Marc,

Networking Windows computers can be quite easy when done properly, but gets
incredibly complex when you make one or two small mistakes. Microsoft makes
several mistakes, constantly, which compound that issue.

1) Most of their documentation is procedure oriented (they tell you how to use
each tool, or what to do with each setting), rather than goal oriented (they
should tell you how to accomplish a given result). And we get caught up in the
detail.

2) They insist making each new version of Windows backwards compatible with
every preceding version. If they'd just designate Windows 95, 98, ME, and NT
OBSOLETE, and provide financial compensation to motivate folks to trash their
out of date systems, everybody (except maybe the botnet owners and hackers)
would be better off.

3) Windows is designed equally for home, small business, and huge business
networks. There are numerous settings involved, in making computers perform
well in either different environment. Getting computers in either environment
work well involves getting all settings precisely and properly set.

But don't let the level of confusion, displayed in these forums, mislead you.
What you see here are a small minority of computer owners. How many problems do
you see, being discussed, each day? How many computers are being sold, during
that same day?

This is a hospital for sick computer users. There is no world wide epidemic of
computer death. Most computer owners are busy surfing the web, or sharing files
within the house, and you won't see THEM posting here. People said the same
things (and worse) about Windows XP, and about Windows NT and (ancient history)
Windows 3.1 before that.

So I'm glad that you were able to solve your problems. If you have more
problems, please post back, let us help you, and maybe you will help us discover
another detail about Vista that we haven't written about yet. This is peer
support.
<http://bloggerstatusforreal.blogspot.com/2006/09/peer-support-it-works-only-if-you-help.html>
http://bloggerstatusforreal.blogspot...-you-help.html

--
Cheers,
Chuck, MS-MVP 2005-2007 [Windows - Networking]
http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/
Paranoia is not a problem, when it's a normal response from experience.
My email is AT DOT
actual address pchuck mvps org.