Selective Detection - Vista > XP

Hello All,
At home I have a small network with three XP Pro systems (two laptops and
one desktop) and one, new, Vista Business laptop. Aside from the problem
below, the network functions well.

All are on the same workgroup, MSHOME. Network Discovery is turned on for
the Vista system. Firewalls are set to allow local traffic. Only the
desktop is connected to the router via wire. The adapter configuration is
the same on all the XP Pro systems, meaning they all have DHCP and IPX/SPX
enabled.

All of the systems can see each other except...

The Vista laptop can see the desktop and laptop#1 with no problem, but it
seems completely unable to even find laptop #2 (which is of course the one
it most needs to connect to), though it does have the ability to ping it.

Laptop 2 can find and access shared folders on the Vista system without
difficulty, but even when it's been copying files for several hours to the
Vista laptop, the Vista laptop can't find, see or access Laptop 2.

Turning network discovery off and on again doesn't help. Changing the name
of laptop 2 doesn't help. "Add a Wireless Device to the network" doesn't
find Laptop 2. Refreshing doesn't help. Cold reboots don't help.

With XP, using the Find Computer function with the missing name usually was
enough to nudge XP into displaying that system, searching for
"\\computername". The Vista search box doesn't seem to do the same thing
at all, or perhaps I haven't found the functional equivalent.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Patrick Keenan

On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 21:14:25 -0500, "Patrick Keenan" <test@dev.null> wrote:

>Hello All,
> At home I have a small network with three XP Pro systems (two laptops and
>one desktop) and one, new, Vista Business laptop. Aside from the problem
>below, the network functions well.
>
>All are on the same workgroup, MSHOME. Network Discovery is turned on for
>the Vista system. Firewalls are set to allow local traffic. Only the
>desktop is connected to the router via wire. The adapter configuration is
>the same on all the XP Pro systems, meaning they all have DHCP and IPX/SPX
>enabled.
>
>All of the systems can see each other except...
>
>The Vista laptop can see the desktop and laptop#1 with no problem, but it
>seems completely unable to even find laptop #2 (which is of course the one
>it most needs to connect to), though it does have the ability to ping it.
>
>Laptop 2 can find and access shared folders on the Vista system without
>difficulty, but even when it's been copying files for several hours to the
>Vista laptop, the Vista laptop can't find, see or access Laptop 2.
>
>Turning network discovery off and on again doesn't help. Changing the name
>of laptop 2 doesn't help. "Add a Wireless Device to the network" doesn't
>find Laptop 2. Refreshing doesn't help. Cold reboots don't help.
>
>With XP, using the Find Computer function with the missing name usually was
>enough to nudge XP into displaying that system, searching for
>"\\computername". The Vista search box doesn't seem to do the same thing
>at all, or perhaps I haven't found the functional equivalent.
>
>Any help would be greatly appreciated.
>
>Thanks,
>Patrick Keenan

Patrick,

Why do you have IPX/SPX? Can the 3 computers running XP Pro all see each other?

Look at logs from "browstat status" and "ipconfig /all", from each computer, and
diagnose the problem. Read this article, and linked articles, and follow
instructions precisely (Download browstat, and note how to start a command
window in Vista!):
<http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/05/troubleshooting-network-neighborhood.html#AskingForHelp>
http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/0...#AskingForHelp

--
Cheers,
Chuck, MS-MVP 2005-2007 [Windows - Networking]
http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/
Paranoia is not a problem, when it's a normal response from experience.
My email is AT DOT
actual address pchuck mvps org.

"Chuck [MVP]" <none@example.net> wrote in message
news:5nmlo3dmfjqg22p55r4ca52klub310hdi6@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 21:14:25 -0500, "Patrick Keenan" <test@dev.null>
> wrote:
>

>
> Patrick,
>
> Why do you have IPX/SPX?

I've heard that this isn't either necessary or desirable, but I have found
that in a number of cases it's the *only* way I can get Windows computers to
see each other. I regularly attach other systems to this network for
service and enabling IPX/SPX just fixed network viewing problems.

I can't see IPX/SPX being the problem as two of the machines that are
detected have it enabled.

> Can the 3 computers running XP Pro all see each other?

Yes, and they can all see the Vista machine, and the Vista machine can see 2
of the other 3 systems.

The only connection that doesn't work is Vista to Laptop 2. Everything
else works fine, including Laptop 2 to Vista.

Network Magic, run from the Vista system, did find the laptop 2 as a
"network device", identified only by IP address. It doesn't identify the
OS as it does for the other systems on the network. Run from Laptop 2, the
Vista system is located and correctly identified. In neither case is a
network problem indicated.

>
> Look at logs from "browstat status" and "ipconfig /all", from each
> computer, and
> diagnose the problem. Read this article, and linked articles, and follow
> instructions precisely (Download browstat, and note how to start a command
> window in Vista!):

Command windows are something I'm not a stranger to, and I will try this,
thanks.


.... and I just got it to work. I'm not sure if this had anything to do
with it, but I disabled TCP/IP v.6, turned off power management on the
adapter, then turned TCP/IP v.6 on again, and closed out those windows.

Refreshed, and lo and behold the missing laptop appears in the Vista network
display. And now Network Magic shows that system as it should, with all
its shared printers. All the shares are accessible.

Thanks!

-pk

> <http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/05/troubleshooting-network-neighborhood.html#AskingForHelp>
> http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/0...#AskingForHelp
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Chuck, MS-MVP 2005-2007 [Windows - Networking]
> http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/
> Paranoia is not a problem, when it's a normal response from experience.
> My email is AT DOT
> actual address pchuck mvps org.

On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 23:36:07 -0500, "Patrick Keenan" <test@dev.null> wrote:

>"Chuck [MVP]" <none@example.net> wrote in message
>news:5nmlo3dmfjqg22p55r4ca52klub310hdi6@4ax.com.. .

>
>I've heard that this isn't either necessary or desirable, but I have found
>that in a number of cases it's the *only* way I can get Windows computers to
>see each other. I regularly attach other systems to this network for
>service and enabling IPX/SPX just fixed network viewing problems.
>
>I can't see IPX/SPX being the problem as two of the machines that are
>detected have it enabled.
>

>
>Yes, and they can all see the Vista machine, and the Vista machine can see 2
>of the other 3 systems.
>
>The only connection that doesn't work is Vista to Laptop 2. Everything
>else works fine, including Laptop 2 to Vista.
>
>Network Magic, run from the Vista system, did find the laptop 2 as a
>"network device", identified only by IP address. It doesn't identify the
>OS as it does for the other systems on the network. Run from Laptop 2, the
>Vista system is located and correctly identified. In neither case is a
>network problem indicated.
>

>
>Command windows are something I'm not a stranger to, and I will try this,
>thanks.
>
>
>... and I just got it to work. I'm not sure if this had anything to do
>with it, but I disabled TCP/IP v.6, turned off power management on the
>adapter, then turned TCP/IP v.6 on again, and closed out those windows.
>
>Refreshed, and lo and behold the missing laptop appears in the Vista network
>display. And now Network Magic shows that system as it should, with all
>its shared printers. All the shares are accessible.
>
>Thanks!
>
>-pk
>

Patrick,

Windows Networking, the art of getting multiple computers running the various
flavours of Microsoft Windows, to "see" and access shared resources on each
other, will work fine using Internet Protocol, though sometimes with a bit of
work required.

Adding IPX/SPX or Network Magic will sometimes work, when there are problems
with specific components in Windows Networking. At other times it won't help a
bit, and will even confuse the issue and make troubleshooting less effective.
<http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/07/windows-networking-and-alternate.html>
http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/0...alternate.html

If you're happy with Network Magic, I'm happy for you. I can save my money, and
find plenty of other things to spend it on.

--
Cheers,
Chuck, MS-MVP 2005-2007 [Windows - Networking]
http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/
Paranoia is not a problem, when it's a normal response from experience.
My email is AT DOT
actual address pchuck mvps org.

"Chuck [MVP]" <none@example.net> wrote in message
news:g3slo35af3p6ut2ol8qn4gp11ag5cn8dfg@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 23:36:07 -0500, "Patrick Keenan" <test@dev.null>
> wrote:
>

>
> Patrick,
>
> Windows Networking, the art of getting multiple computers running the
> various
> flavours of Microsoft Windows, to "see" and access shared resources on
> each
> other, will work fine using Internet Protocol, though sometimes with a bit
> of
> work required.

Which is not as it should be, particularly when there isn't anything special
about any of the systems or setup, and particularly when three systems are
configured identically but only one can't be seen.

> Adding IPX/SPX or Network Magic will sometimes work, when there are
> problems
> with specific components in Windows Networking. At other times it won't
> help a
> bit, and will even confuse the issue and make troubleshooting less
> effective.
> <http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/07/windows-networking-and-alternate.html>
> http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/0...alternate.html
>
> If you're happy with Network Magic, I'm happy for you.

Oh, I'm not happy with it. I found it rather pointless, and used it just
in a Hail-Mary effort to uncover a problem I could not locate.

Personally, I think Network Magic had nothing to do with making the thing
work. I removed the trial version almost immediately - it hadn't made any
changes I could find, all it did was demonstrate that the XP machine was on
the network, probably via Ping, which I'd done manually and knew that the
Vista system *could* reach that one XP system. One of the last things I
need is more unnecessary software on these systems.

(Of course, I already knew that the communication the other way, XP to
Vista, worked perfectly, as I'd spent hours copying files to the Vista
system from the XP system. Vista just didn't seem to want to recognise the
system that was shovelling files onto its drive).

It looks to me like what actually caused this Vista to detect the one XP
system was disabling IPv6 and re-enabling it. I have no idea why Vista
would detect the other XP systems, which are configured identically and
weren't actively copying files to it. No network changes were made
otherwise that I am aware of.

> I can save my money, and
> find plenty of other things to spend it on.

So can I, which is why I won't be buying it - or the Vista Ultimate upgrade.
Or perhaps any other Vista systems for quite some time.

I deliberately bought a system with Vista Business because in general,
systems with Vista Business also ship with XP Pro, so all drivers are
available; in case of failure or hopeless incompatibilty, the purchase would
not be completely wasted.

This was the first test of Vista for my work at remote locations, and it
very nearly resulted in an emergency trip to get another drive for an
overnight conversion to XP Pro. The conversion is still a possibility.

It's going to require a lot more testing before I would rely on Vista.

The bottom line for me is that I don't use these as toys. The OS and the
applications I use have to work without failure, period.

Reliability is no more a feature to an OS or application than running water
is an option at a 5-star hotel.

On-site, the XP system appeared and disappeared seemingly randomly from the
Vista network window, along with other systems that were added to the
sub-network I took with me. I did at least manage to get Vista to not
randomly bluescreen by disabling hibernation.

If the software that I have to use was available for or would run under
Linux or Mac, I'd be strongly considering those, but it isn't and likely
won't ever be.

As it is, the Vista system did suddenly fail in one critical area (audio
recording), and it was a really good thing that I took a backup XP Pro
system with me. That happens to be the one that the Vista system couldn't
see; that XP system is rock-solid reliable. It's just older and slower (a
1gHz celeron), which is why I'm working in the new one.

I am now sure that the new hardware is reliable - the problems are with
Vista and its compatibility with the other things I must use.

While I will give Vista a little more time in its present state, I'm not yet
sure that it's an appropriate OS for real world use when reliability is a
fundamental requirement.

Anyway, thanks for the responses.

-pk

>
> --
> Cheers,
> Chuck, MS-MVP 2005-2007 [Windows - Networking]
> http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/
> Paranoia is not a problem, when it's a normal response from experience.
> My email is AT DOT
> actual address pchuck mvps org.