Why is it so difficult to network Vista and XP PCs?

Here is a typical user Vista/ Wireless XP networking issue:
Explorer can see all computers and exchange files. All permissions are
correctly set and double checked.
However say you want to save an Excel spreadsheet you are working on with
your Vista machine to one of those wireless XP units.
In your Vista machine you click "save as" and then click on "network"
Lo and behold, nothing you can do will make those XP sites appear so you can
save the frigging document.
However tomorrow it might or might not work like it should.
The best solution is to get rid of Vista.
All of your problems will go away and you can get back to work.
You should not be spending time troubleshooting defective Microsoft
programming.

On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 08:43:53 -0700, "nsag" <fac@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Here is a typical user Vista/ Wireless XP networking issue:
>Explorer can see all computers and exchange files. All permissions are
>correctly set and double checked.
>However say you want to save an Excel spreadsheet you are working on with
>your Vista machine to one of those wireless XP units.
>In your Vista machine you click "save as" and then click on "network"
>Lo and behold, nothing you can do will make those XP sites appear so you can
>save the frigging document.
>However tomorrow it might or might not work like it should.
>The best solution is to get rid of Vista.
>All of your problems will go away and you can get back to work.
>You should not be spending time troubleshooting defective Microsoft
>programming.

Until Vista comes out in SP1, it will have these bugs. We are Beta testing it.
And we are documenting it.

There are dozens of reasons for not being able to "see" other computers in
Network Neighbourhood (or whatever else cure name is being used at the time).
Every version of Windows has had these problems, and Windows XP wasn't immune.
I wrote this for XP owners, several years ago.
<http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/10/irregularities-in-workgroup-visibility.html>
http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/1...isibility.html

And this year, I wrote this troubleshooting guide for Vista owners.
<http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2006/12/windows-xp-and-vista-on-lan-together.html>
http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2006/1...-together.html

--
Cheers,
Chuck, MS-MVP 2005-2007 [Windows - Networking]
http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/
Paranoia is not a problem, when it's a normal response from experience.
My email is AT DOT
actual address pchuck mvps org.

On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 08:43:53 -0700, "nsag" <fac@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Here is a typical user Vista/ Wireless XP networking issue:
>Explorer can see all computers and exchange files. All permissions are
>correctly set and double checked.
>However say you want to save an Excel spreadsheet you are working on with
>your Vista machine to one of those wireless XP units.
>In your Vista machine you click "save as" and then click on "network"
>Lo and behold, nothing you can do will make those XP sites appear so you can
>save the frigging document.
>However tomorrow it might or might not work like it should.
>The best solution is to get rid of Vista.
>All of your problems will go away and you can get back to work.
>You should not be spending time troubleshooting defective Microsoft
>programming.

Until Vista comes out in SP1, it will have these bugs. We are Beta testing it.
And we are documenting it.

There are dozens of possible reasons for not being able to "see" other computers
in Network Neighbourhood (or whatever else cute name is being used at the time).
Every version of Windows has had these problems, and Windows XP wasn't immune.
I wrote this for Windows XP owners, several years ago. Windows XP was buggy as
hell until SP1.
<http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/10/irregularities-in-workgroup-visibility.html>
http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/1...isibility.html

And this year, I wrote this troubleshooting guide for Windows Vista owners.
<http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2006/12/windows-xp-and-vista-on-lan-together.html>
http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2006/1...-together.html

--
Cheers,
Chuck, MS-MVP 2005-2007 [Windows - Networking]
http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/
Paranoia is not a problem, when it's a normal response from experience.
My email is AT DOT
actual address pchuck mvps org.

Sir,
you did a great job telling people all the details of networking Vista and
XP computers but this is exactly my point: Why is it necessary to go though
all this jargon when I just want to share a printer and maybe read and write
a few files in the public folder of the other PC? Can't such simple
operations be allowed by default so that Mr. Average does NOT have to read
and understand all of your explanations?
I am certainly not a bloody beginner but I have other things to do than to
struggle with those issues and I certainly hope that there will be such
features and maybe a wizard to do this in Vista pretty soon, otherwise I will
simply abandon it as nsag suggested.
Kind regards,
Pierre KOHLER

"Chuck [MVP]" wrote:

> On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 08:43:53 -0700, "nsag" <fac@hotmail.com> wrote:
>

> >Here is a typical user Vista/ Wireless XP networking issue:
> >Explorer can see all computers and exchange files. All permissions are
> >correctly set and double checked.
> >However say you want to save an Excel spreadsheet you are working on with
> >your Vista machine to one of those wireless XP units.
> >In your Vista machine you click "save as" and then click on "network"
> >Lo and behold, nothing you can do will make those XP sites appear so you can
> >save the frigging document.
> >However tomorrow it might or might not work like it should.
> >The best solution is to get rid of Vista.
> >All of your problems will go away and you can get back to work.
> >You should not be spending time troubleshooting defective Microsoft
> >programming.

>
> Until Vista comes out in SP1, it will have these bugs. We are Beta testing it.
> And we are documenting it.
>
> There are dozens of possible reasons for not being able to "see" other computers
> in Network Neighbourhood (or whatever else cute name is being used at the time).
> Every version of Windows has had these problems, and Windows XP wasn't immune.
> I wrote this for Windows XP owners, several years ago. Windows XP was buggy as
> hell until SP1.
> <http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/10/irregularities-in-workgroup-visibility.html>
> http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/1...isibility.html
>
> And this year, I wrote this troubleshooting guide for Windows Vista owners.
> <http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2006/12/windows-xp-and-vista-on-lan-together.html>
> http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2006/1...-together.html
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Chuck, MS-MVP 2005-2007 [Windows - Networking]
> http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/
> Paranoia is not a problem, when it's a normal response from experience.
> My email is AT DOT
> actual address pchuck mvps org.
>

Chuck,

As an outsider on this thread, thanks for a very comprehensive view into
Vista/XP file & folder sharing. Your nitecruzr blogspots were very good,
and I read them both to try fixing my Vista/XP file sharing problem. (Note:
my network is fine, Public Folder can be shared, but none other).

Anyway, after reading your two web links which apparently can fix any
Vista/XP sharing problem, I must concede defeat. I guess I'll just use the
Public Folder on Vista to use for XP file sharing ventures. To be honest,
your articles were good, but there is No Way I can spend hours trying to
figure out what you wrote, how to actually apply it to my two computers, and
trying to read between the lines. My XP and ME shared perfectly -- no
problems.

Anyway, thanks for putting out the info, really.

EW

"Chuck [MVP]" <none@example.net> wrote in message
news:hm2i93937dneno9bqtklascqmhdnjq5bla@4ax.com...

> On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 08:43:53 -0700, "nsag" <fac@hotmail.com> wrote:
>

>>Here is a typical user Vista/ Wireless XP networking issue:
>>Explorer can see all computers and exchange files. All permissions are
>>correctly set and double checked.
>>However say you want to save an Excel spreadsheet you are working on with
>>your Vista machine to one of those wireless XP units.
>>In your Vista machine you click "save as" and then click on "network"
>>Lo and behold, nothing you can do will make those XP sites appear so you
>>can
>>save the frigging document.
>>However tomorrow it might or might not work like it should.
>>The best solution is to get rid of Vista.
>>All of your problems will go away and you can get back to work.
>>You should not be spending time troubleshooting defective Microsoft
>>programming.

>
> Until Vista comes out in SP1, it will have these bugs. We are Beta
> testing it.
> And we are documenting it.
>
> There are dozens of possible reasons for not being able to "see" other
> computers
> in Network Neighbourhood (or whatever else cute name is being used at the
> time).
> Every version of Windows has had these problems, and Windows XP wasn't
> immune.
> I wrote this for Windows XP owners, several years ago. Windows XP was
> buggy as
> hell until SP1.
> <http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/10/irregularities-in-workgroup-visibility.html>
> http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/1...isibility.html
>
> And this year, I wrote this troubleshooting guide for Windows Vista
> owners.
> <http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2006/12/windows-xp-and-vista-on-lan-together.html>
> http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2006/1...-together.html
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Chuck, MS-MVP 2005-2007 [Windows - Networking]
> http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/
> Paranoia is not a problem, when it's a normal response from experience.
> My email is AT DOT
> actual address pchuck mvps org.

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 02:44:00 -0700, Pierre KOHLER
<PierreKOHLER@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

>"Chuck [MVP]" wrote:
>

>> On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 08:43:53 -0700, "nsag" <fac@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>

>> >Here is a typical user Vista/ Wireless XP networking issue:
>> >Explorer can see all computers and exchange files. All permissions are
>> >correctly set and double checked.
>> >However say you want to save an Excel spreadsheet you are working on with
>> >your Vista machine to one of those wireless XP units.
>> >In your Vista machine you click "save as" and then click on "network"
>> >Lo and behold, nothing you can do will make those XP sites appear so you can
>> >save the frigging document.
>> >However tomorrow it might or might not work like it should.
>> >The best solution is to get rid of Vista.
>> >All of your problems will go away and you can get back to work.
>> >You should not be spending time troubleshooting defective Microsoft
>> >programming.

>>
>> Until Vista comes out in SP1, it will have these bugs. We are Beta testing it.
>> And we are documenting it.
>>
>> There are dozens of possible reasons for not being able to "see" other computers
>> in Network Neighbourhood (or whatever else cute name is being used at the time).
>> Every version of Windows has had these problems, and Windows XP wasn't immune.
>> I wrote this for Windows XP owners, several years ago. Windows XP was buggy as
>> hell until SP1.
>> <http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/10/irregularities-in-workgroup-visibility.html>
>> http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/1...isibility.html
>>
>> And this year, I wrote this troubleshooting guide for Windows Vista owners.
>> <http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2006/12/windows-xp-and-vista-on-lan-together.html>
>> http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2006/1...-together.html

>Sir,
>you did a great job telling people all the details of networking Vista and
>XP computers but this is exactly my point: Why is it necessary to go though
>all this jargon when I just want to share a printer and maybe read and write
>a few files in the public folder of the other PC? Can't such simple
>operations be allowed by default so that Mr. Average does NOT have to read
>and understand all of your explanations?
>I am certainly not a bloody beginner but I have other things to do than to
>struggle with those issues and I certainly hope that there will be such
>features and maybe a wizard to do this in Vista pretty soon, otherwise I will
>simply abandon it as nsag suggested.
>Kind regards,
>Pierre KOHLER

Pierre,

Your point is well made. The biggest problem is that networking computers is
NOT a simple process. I've been working with it for 30 years, and it changes
constantly.
<mode=rant>
Right now, half the complexity in most computers is security software, that
keeps our computers doing OUR work. Not the work of some asswit sitting in his
bedroom somewhere else, hawking v1agruh.

Networking computers isn't simple. Occasionally the boys with smoke and mirrors
make it look that way, but the smoke dissipates and they are left with broken
mirrors.

If you own a car, you learn to drive the car. You don't buy the car, go to
another store, buy a "repair your car yourself" manual, take it home and rebuild
the engine. You take it to a fucking mechanic for engine repairs.

Right now, everybody with a Visa card can go to WalMart (of all places), buy a
computer, take it home, install it, and then get pissed off because they don't
know what they are doing and can't be arsed to read a damn manual, or take it to
an expert.

Maybe it's time to license computer usage.

We'll still be here, probably, for those who will work with us. But if you
don't understand Microsoft products, can't buy a manual, and don't want to read
the manuals that we write (for free), you're free to find any forum where people
produce the manuals that suit your fancy.

I'll repeat my point. Networking computers is not simple - it's hard work. The
complexity, when applied properly, may make it look simple. That's all. It
looks simple. It's not at all simple. Regardless of what the merchandisers
make it look like.</mode>

--
Cheers,
Chuck, MS-MVP 2005-2007 [Windows - Networking]
http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/
Paranoia is not a problem, when it's a normal response from experience.
My email is AT DOT
actual address pchuck mvps org.

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 16:33:19 -0500, "LoneStar" <ewyatt_del_me@excite.com> wrote:

>"Chuck [MVP]" <none@example.net> wrote in message
>news:hm2i93937dneno9bqtklascqmhdnjq5bla@4ax.com.. .

>> On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 08:43:53 -0700, "nsag" <fac@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>

>>>Here is a typical user Vista/ Wireless XP networking issue:
>>>Explorer can see all computers and exchange files. All permissions are
>>>correctly set and double checked.
>>>However say you want to save an Excel spreadsheet you are working on with
>>>your Vista machine to one of those wireless XP units.
>>>In your Vista machine you click "save as" and then click on "network"
>>>Lo and behold, nothing you can do will make those XP sites appear so you
>>>can
>>>save the frigging document.
>>>However tomorrow it might or might not work like it should.
>>>The best solution is to get rid of Vista.
>>>All of your problems will go away and you can get back to work.
>>>You should not be spending time troubleshooting defective Microsoft
>>>programming.

>>
>> Until Vista comes out in SP1, it will have these bugs. We are Beta
>> testing it.
>> And we are documenting it.
>>
>> There are dozens of possible reasons for not being able to "see" other
>> computers
>> in Network Neighbourhood (or whatever else cute name is being used at the
>> time).
>> Every version of Windows has had these problems, and Windows XP wasn't
>> immune.
>> I wrote this for Windows XP owners, several years ago. Windows XP was
>> buggy as
>> hell until SP1.
>> <http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/10/irregularities-in-workgroup-visibility.html>
>> http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/1...isibility.html
>>
>> And this year, I wrote this troubleshooting guide for Windows Vista
>> owners.
>> <http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2006/12/windows-xp-and-vista-on-lan-together.html>
>> http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2006/1...-together.html

>Chuck,
>
>As an outsider on this thread, thanks for a very comprehensive view into
>Vista/XP file & folder sharing. Your nitecruzr blogspots were very good,
>and I read them both to try fixing my Vista/XP file sharing problem. (Note:
>my network is fine, Public Folder can be shared, but none other).
>
>Anyway, after reading your two web links which apparently can fix any
>Vista/XP sharing problem, I must concede defeat. I guess I'll just use the
>Public Folder on Vista to use for XP file sharing ventures. To be honest,
>your articles were good, but there is No Way I can spend hours trying to
>figure out what you wrote, how to actually apply it to my two computers, and
>trying to read between the lines. My XP and ME shared perfectly -- no
>problems.
>
>Anyway, thanks for putting out the info, really.
>
>EW

Thanks for the feedback, EW.

My rant to Pierre aside, I'm betting that there's at least one more key setting
in Windows Vista that I haven't written about, and Microsoft hasn't thought to
tell us about. The Network and Sharing Center GUI is a wizard (a pretty mini
app), for setting dozens of individual settings in a database called Local
Security Policy (in a domain, it's a piece of Active Directory, called
policies).

Even listing the policies, much less identifying them with any description,
isn't done anywhere that I can find. They are supposedly self identifying (ha
ha). And my suspicion is that you will find YOUR problem buried deep in a
policy.

So, as you think more of your problem, drop by here again. We may know more
next week. Maybe your involvement will help us learn more, and help others too.

--
Cheers,
Chuck, MS-MVP 2005-2007 [Windows - Networking]
http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/
Paranoia is not a problem, when it's a normal response from experience.
My email is AT DOT
actual address pchuck mvps org.

Chuck,

I will mention Active Directory Domains only, as that is what I have done.
Vista integrates without difficulty. Essentially all that is done is, join
the Domain, turn on Network Discovery, turn on File Sharing, then actively
share the folders desired. When creating the shares, assign Domain Groups to
the share (with desired permissions), and remove Everyone. At that point
Vista (depending on who is logged in) can see and be seen without
difficulty. Depending on what other client PCs are on the network, things
may be different, but with the correct Group Policy settings, Vista can see,
be seen by, and communicate with everything from other Vista PCs (Home Basic
and Premium cannot be Domain joined, so I omit those) down to MS-DOS 6.22
(running a TCP/IP stack).

John Baker