Will Vista ever fully support voice modem based on conexant chip s

Hi,

You're looking in the wrong place for a driver fix. Microsoft provides
drivers that are supplied to them by the device manufacturers, for the most
part they do not write any of their own other than for their own hardware,
or to provide basic functionality for an industry standard device. They do
not and have not written full driver and software sets to support added
device functionality. It's up to the device manufacturer to fix, add to, or
rewrite drivers, then supply it to Microsoft for distribution on Windows
Update. Many do not do this, some do and just distribute them on their own.
Others do not update drivers for older devices at all, and the consumer is
left with the option of going without a particular function, or with
purchasing new hardware.

--
Best of Luck,

Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP
http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/
Windows help - www.rickrogers.org
My thoughts http://rick-mvp.blogspot.com

"clayga" <clayga@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:52609D13-1C9A-4BF3-B137-9E0CF90DC244@microsoft.com...

> Problem: My Rosewill RC-403 PCI Voice/Data/Fax modem isn't working fully
> with
> a number of TAPI based answering machine programs (e.g. IVM Answering
> Attendant, Impulse Technology's CallStation). These programs can pick up
> and
> record calls but they cannot play a greeting message over the phone line.
> All a caller hears is silence while the greeting is playing. Craig Duncan
> at
> Impulse Technology has indicated to me in a personal communication (as
> well
> as on his web site http://www.imptec.com/modems.htm - see Windows Vista
> section) that the problem is caused by a "bug" in Vista's Unimodem
> Transform
> Module that affects all Conexant based voice modems. Since most modems on
> the market today are based on the Conexant chip set, and since most
> answering
> machine software on the market is TAPI based, the implication is that many
> people are affected by this. In other words, it's very likely that if
> someone wants to use their Vista machine to work as an answering machine,
> they'll run into this.
>
> Questions: Is Craig Duncan right about the Unimodem driver and if so, does
> Microsoft intend to fix this soon? If not, can someone recommend a
> Voice/Data/Fax modem that will support full TAPI answering machine
> functionality running on Vista?
>
> Note: Here's a link to another reference to this problem in the Windows
> Community Forums:
> http://windowshelp.microsoft.com/com...7-5f02dd66a0fd
>

Rick... two items in your post.
"for the most part they do not write any of their own other than for their
own hardware, or to provide basic functionality for an industry standard
device"
and...
"and the consumer is left with the option of going without a particular
function, or with purchasing new hardware"
Seems to me an industry standard device is now broken and new hardware that
works with this class of software can not be found. I've been looking for
nearly a year for a voice modem that will work with Vista.


"Rick Rogers" <rick@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:OcD1WmSKIHA.4808@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

> Hi,
>
> You're looking in the wrong place for a driver fix. Microsoft provides
> drivers that are supplied to them by the device manufacturers, for the
> most part they do not write any of their own other than for their own
> hardware, or to provide basic functionality for an industry standard
> device. They do not and have not written full driver and software sets to
> support added device functionality. It's up to the device manufacturer to
> fix, add to, or rewrite drivers, then supply it to Microsoft for
> distribution on Windows Update. Many do not do this, some do and just
> distribute them on their own. Others do not update drivers for older
> devices at all, and the consumer is left with the option of going without
> a particular function, or with purchasing new hardware.
>
> --
> Best of Luck,
>
> Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP
> http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/
> Windows help - www.rickrogers.org
> My thoughts http://rick-mvp.blogspot.com
>
> "clayga" <clayga@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:52609D13-1C9A-4BF3-B137-9E0CF90DC244@microsoft.com...

>> Problem: My Rosewill RC-403 PCI Voice/Data/Fax modem isn't working fully
>> with
>> a number of TAPI based answering machine programs (e.g. IVM Answering
>> Attendant, Impulse Technology's CallStation). These programs can pick up
>> and
>> record calls but they cannot play a greeting message over the phone line.
>> All a caller hears is silence while the greeting is playing. Craig
>> Duncan at
>> Impulse Technology has indicated to me in a personal communication (as
>> well
>> as on his web site http://www.imptec.com/modems.htm - see Windows Vista
>> section) that the problem is caused by a "bug" in Vista's Unimodem
>> Transform
>> Module that affects all Conexant based voice modems. Since most modems
>> on
>> the market today are based on the Conexant chip set, and since most
>> answering
>> machine software on the market is TAPI based, the implication is that
>> many
>> people are affected by this. In other words, it's very likely that if
>> someone wants to use their Vista machine to work as an answering machine,
>> they'll run into this.
>>
>> Questions: Is Craig Duncan right about the Unimodem driver and if so,
>> does
>> Microsoft intend to fix this soon? If not, can someone recommend a
>> Voice/Data/Fax modem that will support full TAPI answering machine
>> functionality running on Vista?
>>
>> Note: Here's a link to another reference to this problem in the Windows
>> Community Forums:
>> http://windowshelp.microsoft.com/com...7-5f02dd66a0fd
>>

>

Hi DanR,

The basic function of a modem is to perform the analog/digital
(modulation/demodulation) exchange of data, not to support voice modulation.
That is an added feature of some categories of modems. The drivers supplied
by Vista or any other version of Windows simply allows for this, not for the
added capability. The only way it's going to work is when the modem
manufacturers write and release the necessary supporting drivers and
software.

--
Best of Luck,

Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP
http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/
Windows help - www.rickrogers.org
My thoughts http://rick-mvp.blogspot.com

"DanR" <dhr22@sorrynospam.com> wrote in message
news:e8ZYnZhKIHA.280@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

> Rick... two items in your post.
> "for the most part they do not write any of their own other than for their
> own hardware, or to provide basic functionality for an industry standard
> device"
> and...
> "and the consumer is left with the option of going without a particular
> function, or with purchasing new hardware"
> Seems to me an industry standard device is now broken and new hardware
> that works with this class of software can not be found. I've been looking
> for nearly a year for a voice modem that will work with Vista.
>
>
> "Rick Rogers" <rick@mvps.org> wrote in message
> news:OcD1WmSKIHA.4808@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

>> Hi,
>>
>> You're looking in the wrong place for a driver fix. Microsoft provides
>> drivers that are supplied to them by the device manufacturers, for the
>> most part they do not write any of their own other than for their own
>> hardware, or to provide basic functionality for an industry standard
>> device. They do not and have not written full driver and software sets to
>> support added device functionality. It's up to the device manufacturer to
>> fix, add to, or rewrite drivers, then supply it to Microsoft for
>> distribution on Windows Update. Many do not do this, some do and just
>> distribute them on their own. Others do not update drivers for older
>> devices at all, and the consumer is left with the option of going without
>> a particular function, or with purchasing new hardware.
>>
>> --
>> Best of Luck,
>>
>> Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP
>> http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/
>> Windows help - www.rickrogers.org
>> My thoughts http://rick-mvp.blogspot.com
>>
>> "clayga" <clayga@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>> news:52609D13-1C9A-4BF3-B137-9E0CF90DC244@microsoft.com...

>>> Problem: My Rosewill RC-403 PCI Voice/Data/Fax modem isn't working fully
>>> with
>>> a number of TAPI based answering machine programs (e.g. IVM Answering
>>> Attendant, Impulse Technology's CallStation). These programs can pick
>>> up and
>>> record calls but they cannot play a greeting message over the phone
>>> line.
>>> All a caller hears is silence while the greeting is playing. Craig
>>> Duncan at
>>> Impulse Technology has indicated to me in a personal communication (as
>>> well
>>> as on his web site http://www.imptec.com/modems.htm - see Windows Vista
>>> section) that the problem is caused by a "bug" in Vista's Unimodem
>>> Transform
>>> Module that affects all Conexant based voice modems. Since most modems
>>> on
>>> the market today are based on the Conexant chip set, and since most
>>> answering
>>> machine software on the market is TAPI based, the implication is that
>>> many
>>> people are affected by this. In other words, it's very likely that if
>>> someone wants to use their Vista machine to work as an answering
>>> machine,
>>> they'll run into this.
>>>
>>> Questions: Is Craig Duncan right about the Unimodem driver and if so,
>>> does
>>> Microsoft intend to fix this soon? If not, can someone recommend a
>>> Voice/Data/Fax modem that will support full TAPI answering machine
>>> functionality running on Vista?
>>>
>>> Note: Here's a link to another reference to this problem in the Windows
>>> Community Forums:
>>> http://windowshelp.microsoft.com/com...7-5f02dd66a0fd
>>>

>>

>

Well, no offence, but I've been observing this attitude at this NG since
around February. That MS is not responsible for 3rd party hardware working
with Vista. Of course MS can do what it likes and indeed does. But you can't
deny that there are many unhappy people out there with broken hardware. And
now that non-geek, normal folks have purchased new computers like they might
buy a new washing machine... because their old one wore out... they are
having problems. A small percentage of them show up here for help. I'm
reading that enterprise might skip Vista completely. If that turns out to be
true it's because of bad word of mouth. And if my new MS washing machine
started chewing up my clothes I'd have a problem with MS not Levi Strauss.



"Rick Rogers" <rick@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:ufyvnvhKIHA.280@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

> Hi DanR,
>
> The basic function of a modem is to perform the analog/digital
> (modulation/demodulation) exchange of data, not to support voice
> modulation. That is an added feature of some categories of modems. The
> drivers supplied by Vista or any other version of Windows simply allows
> for this, not for the added capability. The only way it's going to work is
> when the modem manufacturers write and release the necessary supporting
> drivers and software.
>
> --
> Best of Luck,
>
> Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP
> http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/
> Windows help - www.rickrogers.org
> My thoughts http://rick-mvp.blogspot.com
>
> "DanR" <dhr22@sorrynospam.com> wrote in message
> news:e8ZYnZhKIHA.280@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

>> Rick... two items in your post.
>> "for the most part they do not write any of their own other than for
>> their own hardware, or to provide basic functionality for an industry
>> standard device"
>> and...
>> "and the consumer is left with the option of going without a particular
>> function, or with purchasing new hardware"
>> Seems to me an industry standard device is now broken and new hardware
>> that works with this class of software can not be found. I've been
>> looking for nearly a year for a voice modem that will work with Vista.
>>
>>
>> "Rick Rogers" <rick@mvps.org> wrote in message
>> news:OcD1WmSKIHA.4808@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> You're looking in the wrong place for a driver fix. Microsoft provides
>>> drivers that are supplied to them by the device manufacturers, for the
>>> most part they do not write any of their own other than for their own
>>> hardware, or to provide basic functionality for an industry standard
>>> device. They do not and have not written full driver and software sets
>>> to support added device functionality. It's up to the device
>>> manufacturer to fix, add to, or rewrite drivers, then supply it to
>>> Microsoft for distribution on Windows Update. Many do not do this, some
>>> do and just distribute them on their own. Others do not update drivers
>>> for older devices at all, and the consumer is left with the option of
>>> going without a particular function, or with purchasing new hardware.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Best of Luck,
>>>
>>> Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP
>>> http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/
>>> Windows help - www.rickrogers.org
>>> My thoughts http://rick-mvp.blogspot.com
>>>
>>> "clayga" <clayga@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>>> news:52609D13-1C9A-4BF3-B137-9E0CF90DC244@microsoft.com...
>>>> Problem: My Rosewill RC-403 PCI Voice/Data/Fax modem isn't working
>>>> fully with
>>>> a number of TAPI based answering machine programs (e.g. IVM Answering
>>>> Attendant, Impulse Technology's CallStation). These programs can pick
>>>> up and
>>>> record calls but they cannot play a greeting message over the phone
>>>> line.
>>>> All a caller hears is silence while the greeting is playing. Craig
>>>> Duncan at
>>>> Impulse Technology has indicated to me in a personal communication (as
>>>> well
>>>> as on his web site http://www.imptec.com/modems.htm - see Windows Vista
>>>> section) that the problem is caused by a "bug" in Vista's Unimodem
>>>> Transform
>>>> Module that affects all Conexant based voice modems. Since most modems
>>>> on
>>>> the market today are based on the Conexant chip set, and since most
>>>> answering
>>>> machine software on the market is TAPI based, the implication is that
>>>> many
>>>> people are affected by this. In other words, it's very likely that if
>>>> someone wants to use their Vista machine to work as an answering
>>>> machine,
>>>> they'll run into this.
>>>>
>>>> Questions: Is Craig Duncan right about the Unimodem driver and if so,
>>>> does
>>>> Microsoft intend to fix this soon? If not, can someone recommend a
>>>> Voice/Data/Fax modem that will support full TAPI answering machine
>>>> functionality running on Vista?
>>>>
>>>> Note: Here's a link to another reference to this problem in the
>>>> Windows
>>>> Community Forums:
>>>> http://windowshelp.microsoft.com/com...7-5f02dd66a0fd
>>>>
>>>

>>

>

No offense taken. I am only trying to explain why you are running into the
issue, not taking a position or defending anyone.

Microsoft writes the operating system, mainly to take advantage of the
capabilities of the current hardware standards. It's up to the device
manufacturers to write software, including drivers, that adhere to the
standards of the operating system. Microsoft, where possible, includes
drivers in the operating system that will at least provide basic
functionality like a standard VGA driver for video, but it ends there for
them.

Device manufacturers, on the other hand, tend to lag behind in providing
updated software for their devices and a new operating system. Why is this?
Well, for starters, there is no profit in spending time rewriting software
for older devices. They've already made money on them, there is nothing more
to be gained. For them, there's more incentive to concentrating resources
developing new hardware with new supporting software for the consumer to
upgrade to if they want full functionality. Secondly, the firmware on a
device may not conform to the standards for a new OS. When this happens,
either the firmware instructions need to be rewritten or a workaround must
be developed. On the latter, they are getting more difficult as shortcuts
and backdoors are being rapidly closed for security reasons.

--
Best of Luck,

Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP
http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/
Windows help - www.rickrogers.org
My thoughts http://rick-mvp.blogspot.com

"DanR" <dhr22@sorrynospam.com> wrote in message
news:O5jvDglKIHA.1208@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

> Well, no offence, but I've been observing this attitude at this NG since
> around February. That MS is not responsible for 3rd party hardware working
> with Vista. Of course MS can do what it likes and indeed does. But you
> can't deny that there are many unhappy people out there with broken
> hardware. And now that non-geek, normal folks have purchased new computers
> like they might buy a new washing machine... because their old one wore
> out... they are having problems. A small percentage of them show up here
> for help. I'm reading that enterprise might skip Vista completely. If that
> turns out to be true it's because of bad word of mouth. And if my new MS
> washing machine started chewing up my clothes I'd have a problem with MS
> not Levi Strauss.
>
>
>
> "Rick Rogers" <rick@mvps.org> wrote in message
> news:ufyvnvhKIHA.280@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

>> Hi DanR,
>>
>> The basic function of a modem is to perform the analog/digital
>> (modulation/demodulation) exchange of data, not to support voice
>> modulation. That is an added feature of some categories of modems. The
>> drivers supplied by Vista or any other version of Windows simply allows
>> for this, not for the added capability. The only way it's going to work
>> is when the modem manufacturers write and release the necessary
>> supporting drivers and software.
>>
>> --
>> Best of Luck,
>>
>> Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP
>> http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/
>> Windows help - www.rickrogers.org
>> My thoughts http://rick-mvp.blogspot.com
>>
>> "DanR" <dhr22@sorrynospam.com> wrote in message
>> news:e8ZYnZhKIHA.280@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

>>> Rick... two items in your post.
>>> "for the most part they do not write any of their own other than for
>>> their own hardware, or to provide basic functionality for an industry
>>> standard device"
>>> and...
>>> "and the consumer is left with the option of going without a particular
>>> function, or with purchasing new hardware"
>>> Seems to me an industry standard device is now broken and new hardware
>>> that works with this class of software can not be found. I've been
>>> looking for nearly a year for a voice modem that will work with Vista.
>>>
>>>
>>> "Rick Rogers" <rick@mvps.org> wrote in message
>>> news:OcD1WmSKIHA.4808@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> You're looking in the wrong place for a driver fix. Microsoft provides
>>>> drivers that are supplied to them by the device manufacturers, for the
>>>> most part they do not write any of their own other than for their own
>>>> hardware, or to provide basic functionality for an industry standard
>>>> device. They do not and have not written full driver and software sets
>>>> to support added device functionality. It's up to the device
>>>> manufacturer to fix, add to, or rewrite drivers, then supply it to
>>>> Microsoft for distribution on Windows Update. Many do not do this, some
>>>> do and just distribute them on their own. Others do not update drivers
>>>> for older devices at all, and the consumer is left with the option of
>>>> going without a particular function, or with purchasing new hardware.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Best of Luck,
>>>>
>>>> Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP
>>>> http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/
>>>> Windows help - www.rickrogers.org
>>>> My thoughts http://rick-mvp.blogspot.com
>>>>
>>>> "clayga" <clayga@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:52609D13-1C9A-4BF3-B137-9E0CF90DC244@microsoft.com...
>>>>> Problem: My Rosewill RC-403 PCI Voice/Data/Fax modem isn't working
>>>>> fully with
>>>>> a number of TAPI based answering machine programs (e.g. IVM Answering
>>>>> Attendant, Impulse Technology's CallStation). These programs can pick
>>>>> up and
>>>>> record calls but they cannot play a greeting message over the phone
>>>>> line.
>>>>> All a caller hears is silence while the greeting is playing. Craig
>>>>> Duncan at
>>>>> Impulse Technology has indicated to me in a personal communication (as
>>>>> well
>>>>> as on his web site http://www.imptec.com/modems.htm - see Windows
>>>>> Vista
>>>>> section) that the problem is caused by a "bug" in Vista's Unimodem
>>>>> Transform
>>>>> Module that affects all Conexant based voice modems. Since most
>>>>> modems on
>>>>> the market today are based on the Conexant chip set, and since most
>>>>> answering
>>>>> machine software on the market is TAPI based, the implication is that
>>>>> many
>>>>> people are affected by this. In other words, it's very likely that if
>>>>> someone wants to use their Vista machine to work as an answering
>>>>> machine,
>>>>> they'll run into this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Questions: Is Craig Duncan right about the Unimodem driver and if so,
>>>>> does
>>>>> Microsoft intend to fix this soon? If not, can someone recommend a
>>>>> Voice/Data/Fax modem that will support full TAPI answering machine
>>>>> functionality running on Vista?
>>>>>
>>>>> Note: Here's a link to another reference to this problem in the
>>>>> Windows
>>>>> Community Forums:
>>>>> http://windowshelp.microsoft.com/com...7-5f02dd66a0fd
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>

>>

>

Since I started this thread, I'll add my two cents about the points Danr and
Rick Rogers have raised.

1. Voice/Data/Fax modems are multi function devices like all-in-one
printer-scanner devices. Would it make sense for anybody to argue that
all-in-one devices have only one core capability - printing for example, and
then write drivers that ignored scanning because it's not a core capability?
I just don't buy the argument that Voice is an "added" feature, and hence
doesn't merit Microsoft's attention.

2. Voice capabilities in Voice/Data/Fax modems support a variety of
telephony applications that are not supported by any other type of hardware
to my knowledge. As Danr pointed out, it's been a year since Vista shipped
and it's still hard (impossible?) to find a Voice/Data/Fax modem that fully
supports voice features on Vista. I've certainly have had no luck. The
information one needs to make an informed decision about whether voice
features of Voice/Data/Fax modems will work with Vista is either unavailable
or buried so deep that most people will never find it. I've searched
manufacture web sites, forums, and Microsoft's own Vista hardware
compatibility web pages and none tell users what they need to know to make
informed purchasing decisions. The appearance of all this is that Vista is
abandoning voice modems and the telephony applications they support. How can
Microsoft be comfortable with this state of affairs? Thousands of customers
(tens of thousands?) must be confused, annoyed, possibly even angry.

3. I hope one or more Windows Program Managers at Microsoft is or becomes
aware of this situation and takes action. Reasonable alternatives I think
would include 1) getting a developer at Microsoft to fix the "generic" voice
drivers that will get voice features working for most of the Voice/Fax/Data
modems out there - e.g. fixing the Unimodem Transform Module that apparently
is the problem for Conexant based modems might be a good place to start, 2)
provide an incentive to get modem manufactures to update their drivers, or 3)
provide an incentive to get at least one modem manufacturer to develop and
market a new Voice/Data/Fax modem (including drivers) that will work with
Vista.


"Rick Rogers" wrote:

> No offense taken. I am only trying to explain why you are running into the
> issue, not taking a position or defending anyone.
>
> Microsoft writes the operating system, mainly to take advantage of the
> capabilities of the current hardware standards. It's up to the device
> manufacturers to write software, including drivers, that adhere to the
> standards of the operating system. Microsoft, where possible, includes
> drivers in the operating system that will at least provide basic
> functionality like a standard VGA driver for video, but it ends there for
> them.
>
> Device manufacturers, on the other hand, tend to lag behind in providing
> updated software for their devices and a new operating system. Why is this?
> Well, for starters, there is no profit in spending time rewriting software
> for older devices. They've already made money on them, there is nothing more
> to be gained. For them, there's more incentive to concentrating resources
> developing new hardware with new supporting software for the consumer to
> upgrade to if they want full functionality. Secondly, the firmware on a
> device may not conform to the standards for a new OS. When this happens,
> either the firmware instructions need to be rewritten or a workaround must
> be developed. On the latter, they are getting more difficult as shortcuts
> and backdoors are being rapidly closed for security reasons.
>
> --
> Best of Luck,
>
> Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP
> http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/
> Windows help - www.rickrogers.org
> My thoughts http://rick-mvp.blogspot.com
>
> "DanR" <dhr22@sorrynospam.com> wrote in message
> news:O5jvDglKIHA.1208@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

> > Well, no offence, but I've been observing this attitude at this NG since
> > around February. That MS is not responsible for 3rd party hardware working
> > with Vista. Of course MS can do what it likes and indeed does. But you
> > can't deny that there are many unhappy people out there with broken
> > hardware. And now that non-geek, normal folks have purchased new computers
> > like they might buy a new washing machine... because their old one wore
> > out... they are having problems. A small percentage of them show up here
> > for help. I'm reading that enterprise might skip Vista completely. If that
> > turns out to be true it's because of bad word of mouth. And if my new MS
> > washing machine started chewing up my clothes I'd have a problem with MS
> > not Levi Strauss.
> >
> >
> >
> > "Rick Rogers" <rick@mvps.org> wrote in message
> > news:ufyvnvhKIHA.280@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

> >> Hi DanR,
> >>
> >> The basic function of a modem is to perform the analog/digital
> >> (modulation/demodulation) exchange of data, not to support voice
> >> modulation. That is an added feature of some categories of modems. The
> >> drivers supplied by Vista or any other version of Windows simply allows
> >> for this, not for the added capability. The only way it's going to work
> >> is when the modem manufacturers write and release the necessary
> >> supporting drivers and software.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Best of Luck,
> >>
> >> Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP
> >> http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/
> >> Windows help - www.rickrogers.org
> >> My thoughts http://rick-mvp.blogspot.com
> >>
> >> "DanR" <dhr22@sorrynospam.com> wrote in message
> >> news:e8ZYnZhKIHA.280@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
> >>> Rick... two items in your post.
> >>> "for the most part they do not write any of their own other than for
> >>> their own hardware, or to provide basic functionality for an industry
> >>> standard device"
> >>> and...
> >>> "and the consumer is left with the option of going without a particular
> >>> function, or with purchasing new hardware"
> >>> Seems to me an industry standard device is now broken and new hardware
> >>> that works with this class of software can not be found. I've been
> >>> looking for nearly a year for a voice modem that will work with Vista.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> "Rick Rogers" <rick@mvps.org> wrote in message
> >>> news:OcD1WmSKIHA.4808@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> >>>> Hi,
> >>>>
> >>>> You're looking in the wrong place for a driver fix. Microsoft provides
> >>>> drivers that are supplied to them by the device manufacturers, for the
> >>>> most part they do not write any of their own other than for their own
> >>>> hardware, or to provide basic functionality for an industry standard
> >>>> device. They do not and have not written full driver and software sets
> >>>> to support added device functionality. It's up to the device
> >>>> manufacturer to fix, add to, or rewrite drivers, then supply it to
> >>>> Microsoft for distribution on Windows Update. Many do not do this, some
> >>>> do and just distribute them on their own. Others do not update drivers
> >>>> for older devices at all, and the consumer is left with the option of
> >>>> going without a particular function, or with purchasing new hardware.
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Best of Luck,
> >>>>
> >>>> Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP
> >>>> http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/
> >>>> Windows help - www.rickrogers.org
> >>>> My thoughts http://rick-mvp.blogspot.com
> >>>>
> >>>> "clayga" <clayga@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> >>>> news:52609D13-1C9A-4BF3-B137-9E0CF90DC244@microsoft.com...
> >>>>> Problem: My Rosewill RC-403 PCI Voice/Data/Fax modem isn't working
> >>>>> fully with
> >>>>> a number of TAPI based answering machine programs (e.g. IVM Answering
> >>>>> Attendant, Impulse Technology's CallStation). These programs can pick
> >>>>> up and
> >>>>> record calls but they cannot play a greeting message over the phone
> >>>>> line.
> >>>>> All a caller hears is silence while the greeting is playing. Craig
> >>>>> Duncan at
> >>>>> Impulse Technology has indicated to me in a personal communication (as
> >>>>> well
> >>>>> as on his web site http://www.imptec.com/modems.htm - see Windows
> >>>>> Vista
> >>>>> section) that the problem is caused by a "bug" in Vista's Unimodem
> >>>>> Transform
> >>>>> Module that affects all Conexant based voice modems. Since most
> >>>>> modems on
> >>>>> the market today are based on the Conexant chip set, and since most
> >>>>> answering
> >>>>> machine software on the market is TAPI based, the implication is that
> >>>>> many
> >>>>> people are affected by this. In other words, it's very likely that if
> >>>>> someone wants to use their Vista machine to work as an answering
> >>>>> machine,
> >>>>> they'll run into this.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Questions: Is Craig Duncan right about the Unimodem driver and if so,
> >>>>> does
> >>>>> Microsoft intend to fix this soon? If not, can someone recommend a
> >>>>> Voice/Data/Fax modem that will support full TAPI answering machine
> >>>>> functionality running on Vista?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Note: Here's a link to another reference to this problem in the
> >>>>> Windows
> >>>>> Community Forums:
> >>>>> http://windowshelp.microsoft.com/com...7-5f02dd66a0fd
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>

> >

>
>

i know i have this type of modem on my laptop, and it's great unfortunatly i
have no idea why it says it supports voice, since i can't find any program
that uses it on this modem, but i have noticed that caller-id is supported
on these modem(yes, if u have caller id your computer will be able to show
the name and tel number, as long as u have the software, which happens to be
free)
look for vista-caller id and phonetray-free. phonetray allow your pc to say
the name and number outloud

--
L.B.Capt. Jonathan Perreault
http://www.AllAboutGames.BraveHost.com
- note: click continue, when it ask about security certificate -

I'm A Proud Member Of Bravenet, They Have Great Tools And Script
For Web Site Owner. To Visit: http://www.bravenet.com/?afilid=658810278
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"clayga" <clayga@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:F6A4C22C-AE5F-491C-ABBD-7DAC4E5099E2@microsoft.com...

> Since I started this thread, I'll add my two cents about the points Danr
> and
> Rick Rogers have raised.
>
> 1. Voice/Data/Fax modems are multi function devices like all-in-one
> printer-scanner devices. Would it make sense for anybody to argue that
> all-in-one devices have only one core capability - printing for example,
> and
> then write drivers that ignored scanning because it's not a core
> capability?
> I just don't buy the argument that Voice is an "added" feature, and hence
> doesn't merit Microsoft's attention.
>
> 2. Voice capabilities in Voice/Data/Fax modems support a variety of
> telephony applications that are not supported by any other type of
> hardware
> to my knowledge. As Danr pointed out, it's been a year since Vista
> shipped
> and it's still hard (impossible?) to find a Voice/Data/Fax modem that
> fully
> supports voice features on Vista. I've certainly have had no luck. The
> information one needs to make an informed decision about whether voice
> features of Voice/Data/Fax modems will work with Vista is either
> unavailable
> or buried so deep that most people will never find it. I've searched
> manufacture web sites, forums, and Microsoft's own Vista hardware
> compatibility web pages and none tell users what they need to know to make
> informed purchasing decisions. The appearance of all this is that Vista
> is
> abandoning voice modems and the telephony applications they support. How
> can
> Microsoft be comfortable with this state of affairs? Thousands of
> customers
> (tens of thousands?) must be confused, annoyed, possibly even angry.
>
> 3. I hope one or more Windows Program Managers at Microsoft is or becomes
> aware of this situation and takes action. Reasonable alternatives I think
> would include 1) getting a developer at Microsoft to fix the "generic"
> voice
> drivers that will get voice features working for most of the
> Voice/Fax/Data
> modems out there - e.g. fixing the Unimodem Transform Module that
> apparently
> is the problem for Conexant based modems might be a good place to start,
> 2)
> provide an incentive to get modem manufactures to update their drivers, or
> 3)
> provide an incentive to get at least one modem manufacturer to develop and
> market a new Voice/Data/Fax modem (including drivers) that will work with
> Vista.
>
>
> "Rick Rogers" wrote:
>

>> No offense taken. I am only trying to explain why you are running into
>> the
>> issue, not taking a position or defending anyone.
>>
>> Microsoft writes the operating system, mainly to take advantage of the
>> capabilities of the current hardware standards. It's up to the device
>> manufacturers to write software, including drivers, that adhere to the
>> standards of the operating system. Microsoft, where possible, includes
>> drivers in the operating system that will at least provide basic
>> functionality like a standard VGA driver for video, but it ends there for
>> them.
>>
>> Device manufacturers, on the other hand, tend to lag behind in providing
>> updated software for their devices and a new operating system. Why is
>> this?
>> Well, for starters, there is no profit in spending time rewriting
>> software
>> for older devices. They've already made money on them, there is nothing
>> more
>> to be gained. For them, there's more incentive to concentrating resources
>> developing new hardware with new supporting software for the consumer to
>> upgrade to if they want full functionality. Secondly, the firmware on a
>> device may not conform to the standards for a new OS. When this happens,
>> either the firmware instructions need to be rewritten or a workaround
>> must
>> be developed. On the latter, they are getting more difficult as shortcuts
>> and backdoors are being rapidly closed for security reasons.
>>
>> --
>> Best of Luck,
>>
>> Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP
>> http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/
>> Windows help - www.rickrogers.org
>> My thoughts http://rick-mvp.blogspot.com
>>
>> "DanR" <dhr22@sorrynospam.com> wrote in message
>> news:O5jvDglKIHA.1208@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

>> > Well, no offence, but I've been observing this attitude at this NG
>> > since
>> > around February. That MS is not responsible for 3rd party hardware
>> > working
>> > with Vista. Of course MS can do what it likes and indeed does. But you
>> > can't deny that there are many unhappy people out there with broken
>> > hardware. And now that non-geek, normal folks have purchased new
>> > computers
>> > like they might buy a new washing machine... because their old one wore
>> > out... they are having problems. A small percentage of them show up
>> > here
>> > for help. I'm reading that enterprise might skip Vista completely. If
>> > that
>> > turns out to be true it's because of bad word of mouth. And if my new
>> > MS
>> > washing machine started chewing up my clothes I'd have a problem with
>> > MS
>> > not Levi Strauss.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > "Rick Rogers" <rick@mvps.org> wrote in message
>> > news:ufyvnvhKIHA.280@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>> >> Hi DanR,
>> >>
>> >> The basic function of a modem is to perform the analog/digital
>> >> (modulation/demodulation) exchange of data, not to support voice
>> >> modulation. That is an added feature of some categories of modems. The
>> >> drivers supplied by Vista or any other version of Windows simply
>> >> allows
>> >> for this, not for the added capability. The only way it's going to
>> >> work
>> >> is when the modem manufacturers write and release the necessary
>> >> supporting drivers and software.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Best of Luck,
>> >>
>> >> Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP
>> >> http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/
>> >> Windows help - www.rickrogers.org
>> >> My thoughts http://rick-mvp.blogspot.com
>> >>
>> >> "DanR" <dhr22@sorrynospam.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:e8ZYnZhKIHA.280@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>> >>> Rick... two items in your post.
>> >>> "for the most part they do not write any of their own other than for
>> >>> their own hardware, or to provide basic functionality for an industry
>> >>> standard device"
>> >>> and...
>> >>> "and the consumer is left with the option of going without a
>> >>> particular
>> >>> function, or with purchasing new hardware"
>> >>> Seems to me an industry standard device is now broken and new
>> >>> hardware
>> >>> that works with this class of software can not be found. I've been
>> >>> looking for nearly a year for a voice modem that will work with
>> >>> Vista.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> "Rick Rogers" <rick@mvps.org> wrote in message
>> >>> news:OcD1WmSKIHA.4808@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>> >>>> Hi,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> You're looking in the wrong place for a driver fix. Microsoft
>> >>>> provides
>> >>>> drivers that are supplied to them by the device manufacturers, for
>> >>>> the
>> >>>> most part they do not write any of their own other than for their
>> >>>> own
>> >>>> hardware, or to provide basic functionality for an industry standard
>> >>>> device. They do not and have not written full driver and software
>> >>>> sets
>> >>>> to support added device functionality. It's up to the device
>> >>>> manufacturer to fix, add to, or rewrite drivers, then supply it to
>> >>>> Microsoft for distribution on Windows Update. Many do not do this,
>> >>>> some
>> >>>> do and just distribute them on their own. Others do not update
>> >>>> drivers
>> >>>> for older devices at all, and the consumer is left with the option
>> >>>> of
>> >>>> going without a particular function, or with purchasing new
>> >>>> hardware.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> Best of Luck,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP
>> >>>> http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/
>> >>>> Windows help - www.rickrogers.org
>> >>>> My thoughts http://rick-mvp.blogspot.com
>> >>>>
>> >>>> "clayga" <clayga@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>> >>>> news:52609D13-1C9A-4BF3-B137-9E0CF90DC244@microsoft.com...
>> >>>>> Problem: My Rosewill RC-403 PCI Voice/Data/Fax modem isn't working
>> >>>>> fully with
>> >>>>> a number of TAPI based answering machine programs (e.g. IVM
>> >>>>> Answering
>> >>>>> Attendant, Impulse Technology's CallStation). These programs can
>> >>>>> pick
>> >>>>> up and
>> >>>>> record calls but they cannot play a greeting message over the phone
>> >>>>> line.
>> >>>>> All a caller hears is silence while the greeting is playing. Craig
>> >>>>> Duncan at
>> >>>>> Impulse Technology has indicated to me in a personal communication
>> >>>>> (as
>> >>>>> well
>> >>>>> as on his web site http://www.imptec.com/modems.htm - see Windows
>> >>>>> Vista
>> >>>>> section) that the problem is caused by a "bug" in Vista's Unimodem
>> >>>>> Transform
>> >>>>> Module that affects all Conexant based voice modems. Since most
>> >>>>> modems on
>> >>>>> the market today are based on the Conexant chip set, and since most
>> >>>>> answering
>> >>>>> machine software on the market is TAPI based, the implication is
>> >>>>> that
>> >>>>> many
>> >>>>> people are affected by this. In other words, it's very likely that
>> >>>>> if
>> >>>>> someone wants to use their Vista machine to work as an answering
>> >>>>> machine,
>> >>>>> they'll run into this.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Questions: Is Craig Duncan right about the Unimodem driver and if
>> >>>>> so,
>> >>>>> does
>> >>>>> Microsoft intend to fix this soon? If not, can someone recommend a
>> >>>>> Voice/Data/Fax modem that will support full TAPI answering machine
>> >>>>> functionality running on Vista?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Note: Here's a link to another reference to this problem in the
>> >>>>> Windows
>> >>>>> Community Forums:
>> >>>>> http://windowshelp.microsoft.com/com...7-5f02dd66a0fd
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >

>>
>>

Not to belabor the point, but a modem, by definition, is a device that
converts signal from analog to digital and vice-versa (hence
modulation/demodulation or mo-dem). Voice communication is pure analog, not
something that requires this conversion. When a modem is in operation, its
basic function after negotiating a connection is translating the data for
transmission and reception, nothing else. Microsoft does not make this
determination, it's a standard. Manufacturers choose to add voice
capabilities to the device, but then do not want to write the necessary
supporting software (drivers) so that it functions in a given operating
system. The device therefore uses the basic driver provided for the function
for which a modem is designed. There are additional technical considerations
that I won't get into, but it's not going to change.

--
Best of Luck,

Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP
http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/
Windows help - www.rickrogers.org
My thoughts http://rick-mvp.blogspot.com

"clayga" <clayga@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:F6A4C22C-AE5F-491C-ABBD-7DAC4E5099E2@microsoft.com...

> Since I started this thread, I'll add my two cents about the points Danr
> and
> Rick Rogers have raised.
>
> 1. Voice/Data/Fax modems are multi function devices like all-in-one
> printer-scanner devices. Would it make sense for anybody to argue that
> all-in-one devices have only one core capability - printing for example,
> and
> then write drivers that ignored scanning because it's not a core
> capability?
> I just don't buy the argument that Voice is an "added" feature, and hence
> doesn't merit Microsoft's attention.
>
> 2. Voice capabilities in Voice/Data/Fax modems support a variety of
> telephony applications that are not supported by any other type of
> hardware
> to my knowledge. As Danr pointed out, it's been a year since Vista
> shipped
> and it's still hard (impossible?) to find a Voice/Data/Fax modem that
> fully
> supports voice features on Vista. I've certainly have had no luck. The
> information one needs to make an informed decision about whether voice
> features of Voice/Data/Fax modems will work with Vista is either
> unavailable
> or buried so deep that most people will never find it. I've searched
> manufacture web sites, forums, and Microsoft's own Vista hardware
> compatibility web pages and none tell users what they need to know to make
> informed purchasing decisions. The appearance of all this is that Vista
> is
> abandoning voice modems and the telephony applications they support. How
> can
> Microsoft be comfortable with this state of affairs? Thousands of
> customers
> (tens of thousands?) must be confused, annoyed, possibly even angry.
>
> 3. I hope one or more Windows Program Managers at Microsoft is or becomes
> aware of this situation and takes action. Reasonable alternatives I think
> would include 1) getting a developer at Microsoft to fix the "generic"
> voice
> drivers that will get voice features working for most of the
> Voice/Fax/Data
> modems out there - e.g. fixing the Unimodem Transform Module that
> apparently
> is the problem for Conexant based modems might be a good place to start,
> 2)
> provide an incentive to get modem manufactures to update their drivers, or
> 3)
> provide an incentive to get at least one modem manufacturer to develop and
> market a new Voice/Data/Fax modem (including drivers) that will work with
> Vista.
>
>
> "Rick Rogers" wrote:
>

>> No offense taken. I am only trying to explain why you are running into
>> the
>> issue, not taking a position or defending anyone.
>>
>> Microsoft writes the operating system, mainly to take advantage of the
>> capabilities of the current hardware standards. It's up to the device
>> manufacturers to write software, including drivers, that adhere to the
>> standards of the operating system. Microsoft, where possible, includes
>> drivers in the operating system that will at least provide basic
>> functionality like a standard VGA driver for video, but it ends there for
>> them.
>>
>> Device manufacturers, on the other hand, tend to lag behind in providing
>> updated software for their devices and a new operating system. Why is
>> this?
>> Well, for starters, there is no profit in spending time rewriting
>> software
>> for older devices. They've already made money on them, there is nothing
>> more
>> to be gained. For them, there's more incentive to concentrating resources
>> developing new hardware with new supporting software for the consumer to
>> upgrade to if they want full functionality. Secondly, the firmware on a
>> device may not conform to the standards for a new OS. When this happens,
>> either the firmware instructions need to be rewritten or a workaround
>> must
>> be developed. On the latter, they are getting more difficult as shortcuts
>> and backdoors are being rapidly closed for security reasons.
>>
>> --
>> Best of Luck,
>>
>> Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP
>> http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/
>> Windows help - www.rickrogers.org
>> My thoughts http://rick-mvp.blogspot.com
>>
>> "DanR" <dhr22@sorrynospam.com> wrote in message
>> news:O5jvDglKIHA.1208@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

>> > Well, no offence, but I've been observing this attitude at this NG
>> > since
>> > around February. That MS is not responsible for 3rd party hardware
>> > working
>> > with Vista. Of course MS can do what it likes and indeed does. But you
>> > can't deny that there are many unhappy people out there with broken
>> > hardware. And now that non-geek, normal folks have purchased new
>> > computers
>> > like they might buy a new washing machine... because their old one wore
>> > out... they are having problems. A small percentage of them show up
>> > here
>> > for help. I'm reading that enterprise might skip Vista completely. If
>> > that
>> > turns out to be true it's because of bad word of mouth. And if my new
>> > MS
>> > washing machine started chewing up my clothes I'd have a problem with
>> > MS
>> > not Levi Strauss.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > "Rick Rogers" <rick@mvps.org> wrote in message
>> > news:ufyvnvhKIHA.280@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>> >> Hi DanR,
>> >>
>> >> The basic function of a modem is to perform the analog/digital
>> >> (modulation/demodulation) exchange of data, not to support voice
>> >> modulation. That is an added feature of some categories of modems. The
>> >> drivers supplied by Vista or any other version of Windows simply
>> >> allows
>> >> for this, not for the added capability. The only way it's going to
>> >> work
>> >> is when the modem manufacturers write and release the necessary
>> >> supporting drivers and software.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Best of Luck,
>> >>
>> >> Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP
>> >> http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/
>> >> Windows help - www.rickrogers.org
>> >> My thoughts http://rick-mvp.blogspot.com
>> >>
>> >> "DanR" <dhr22@sorrynospam.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:e8ZYnZhKIHA.280@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>> >>> Rick... two items in your post.
>> >>> "for the most part they do not write any of their own other than for
>> >>> their own hardware, or to provide basic functionality for an industry
>> >>> standard device"
>> >>> and...
>> >>> "and the consumer is left with the option of going without a
>> >>> particular
>> >>> function, or with purchasing new hardware"
>> >>> Seems to me an industry standard device is now broken and new
>> >>> hardware
>> >>> that works with this class of software can not be found. I've been
>> >>> looking for nearly a year for a voice modem that will work with
>> >>> Vista.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> "Rick Rogers" <rick@mvps.org> wrote in message
>> >>> news:OcD1WmSKIHA.4808@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>> >>>> Hi,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> You're looking in the wrong place for a driver fix. Microsoft
>> >>>> provides
>> >>>> drivers that are supplied to them by the device manufacturers, for
>> >>>> the
>> >>>> most part they do not write any of their own other than for their
>> >>>> own
>> >>>> hardware, or to provide basic functionality for an industry standard
>> >>>> device. They do not and have not written full driver and software
>> >>>> sets
>> >>>> to support added device functionality. It's up to the device
>> >>>> manufacturer to fix, add to, or rewrite drivers, then supply it to
>> >>>> Microsoft for distribution on Windows Update. Many do not do this,
>> >>>> some
>> >>>> do and just distribute them on their own. Others do not update
>> >>>> drivers
>> >>>> for older devices at all, and the consumer is left with the option
>> >>>> of
>> >>>> going without a particular function, or with purchasing new
>> >>>> hardware.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> Best of Luck,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP
>> >>>> http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/
>> >>>> Windows help - www.rickrogers.org
>> >>>> My thoughts http://rick-mvp.blogspot.com
>> >>>>
>> >>>> "clayga" <clayga@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>> >>>> news:52609D13-1C9A-4BF3-B137-9E0CF90DC244@microsoft.com...
>> >>>>> Problem: My Rosewill RC-403 PCI Voice/Data/Fax modem isn't working
>> >>>>> fully with
>> >>>>> a number of TAPI based answering machine programs (e.g. IVM
>> >>>>> Answering
>> >>>>> Attendant, Impulse Technology's CallStation). These programs can
>> >>>>> pick
>> >>>>> up and
>> >>>>> record calls but they cannot play a greeting message over the phone
>> >>>>> line.
>> >>>>> All a caller hears is silence while the greeting is playing. Craig
>> >>>>> Duncan at
>> >>>>> Impulse Technology has indicated to me in a personal communication
>> >>>>> (as
>> >>>>> well
>> >>>>> as on his web site http://www.imptec.com/modems.htm - see Windows
>> >>>>> Vista
>> >>>>> section) that the problem is caused by a "bug" in Vista's Unimodem
>> >>>>> Transform
>> >>>>> Module that affects all Conexant based voice modems. Since most
>> >>>>> modems on
>> >>>>> the market today are based on the Conexant chip set, and since most
>> >>>>> answering
>> >>>>> machine software on the market is TAPI based, the implication is
>> >>>>> that
>> >>>>> many
>> >>>>> people are affected by this. In other words, it's very likely that
>> >>>>> if
>> >>>>> someone wants to use their Vista machine to work as an answering
>> >>>>> machine,
>> >>>>> they'll run into this.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Questions: Is Craig Duncan right about the Unimodem driver and if
>> >>>>> so,
>> >>>>> does
>> >>>>> Microsoft intend to fix this soon? If not, can someone recommend a
>> >>>>> Voice/Data/Fax modem that will support full TAPI answering machine
>> >>>>> functionality running on Vista?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Note: Here's a link to another reference to this problem in the
>> >>>>> Windows
>> >>>>> Community Forums:
>> >>>>> http://windowshelp.microsoft.com/com...7-5f02dd66a0fd
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >

>>
>>